Who has Lithium Batteries?

[Tom and Maje]

You need to add another category. "Do you have regular batteries, but plan to change to lithium batteries." That's our category.

Maje

[lbutler31]

We are a broker & I have several clients that mentioned the same issue arising with their insurance companies when retrofitted with Lithium.

[mcon12000]

Can I suggest contacting a manufacturer or reputable installer (like just catamarans) who do this type of system daily?

You’ll get actual usable information related to insurance as these are either new boats or very expensive late model boats they are dealing with. As an installation provider they should be aware of all warranty/insurance/compliance issues with the US and European standards or any other market they sell in.

Many new boats are offered with lifepo4 as an option and I imagine it will be a base model feature in the next few years.

[Cpt Mark]

Originally Posted by IslandInfedel

AGM for start
Battle born lithium for house

You can not over charge or really mistreat the BB, it will just shut itself off.


I’d be suspect of a insurance company with that view, what other small print do they have? Nothing is worse than paying into insurance only to have them weasel out of a claim if one day you actually need them

Battle Borns are expensive but they are better built and can't catch fire.

[Cpt Mark]

Originally Posted by mcon12000

Can I suggest contacting a manufacturer or reputable installer (like just catamarans) who do this type of system daily?

You’ll get actual usable information related to insurance as these are either new boats or very expensive late model boats they are dealing with. As an installation provider they should be aware of all warranty/insurance/compliance issues with the US and European standards or any other market they sell in.

Many new boats are offered with lifepo4 as an option and I imagine it will be a base model feature in the next few years.

These people are selling LiFePo's,not insuring them. I doubt very much if they care about the insurance aspect. However it does bring up a question I've not seen asked so I'll post it in a new thread.

[Steve DAntonio]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I bet a lot of underwriters would give push back if they thought about asking. My understanding is the review of the ABYC addition for LFP has been floating around for years.

I voted, but think your poll would have been better by asking if those cruisers with LFP have comp insurance and does the ins company know they do and cover for it.

ABYC did release their long-awaited TE-13 Lithium Ion Battery Technical Information Report in July (it's not a "Standard" yet). I and another member of this forum sit on the committee that helped draft and refine it.

The differences between LI battery manufacturers is considerable. My recommendation to those considering them is to go with a recognized, well-established manufacturer, one whose products...

-Meet TE 13
-Carry liability insurance, with appropriate limits, from a reputable insurer

-While ensuring they are installed to both the manufacturer's and TE13 standards, and that the vessel's overall charging and battery related wiring is fully up to ABYC Standards.

Less expensive systems can be 'assembled' from disparate parts, however, those are far less reliable and potentially more dangerous, and as a user you are entirely on your own re. performance, and safety, and I would not blame an insurer for at least raising the question of coverage in that case.

Statistically, LFP batteries (not all LI batteries are LFP, however, LFP is acknowledged as among the safer chemistries) are safe when properly installed. Fires associated with marine LFP batteries are rare, but so too are marine LFP batteries...

However, in a retrofit, using them often stress a vessel's existing electrical system, which can lead to a fire. Not the battery's fault per se, but it can be an indirect cause.

As an aside, if you compare the MSDS of a AGM battery to a LFP battery, the former appears far more dangerous.

[Skipper Lee]

Modern models use Lithium polymer and i had a fire as well, burned 95 % through my counter top, was not home! I never charge LI-PO unattended when indoors anymore.
Not the same chemistry.

[karkauai]

Much of the advantage of LiFePO4 is efficiency when charging. They take a much higher charge rate until essentially full, and this reduces generator/charging time, and makes solar charging more efficient. Higher amp chargers can reduce charging times by half or more. You need to have charging equipment that is compatible with LiFePO4, including chargers, alternator controllers, solar and wind controllers.
Make sure you configured and use your charging equipment in a way that doesn't ruin your expensive batteries. They are NOT necessarily drop-in replacements.

[CatNewBee]

#2 for us

full time liveaboards and blue water sailors,

LiFeYPO4 Winston cells 4 x 1000Ah, REC ABMS, DIY system on a Lagoon 400S2 cat, electric galley, induction hob, convection oven, 12/220V watermaker, 2 fridges, one freezer, a lot of residential appliances.

2 AGM spiral cell start batteries, regular alternators, 1650Wp Solar on a Victron SmartSolar 150/100 controller, Victron Quattro 5kVA inverter / charger, Onan 7kVA generator, 44000 btu A/C. (Generator and A/C not used most of the time)

I consider the vessel safer with lithium than before with LA and Propane. Eliminating the thread of a propane explosion or poisoning is a huge advantage and safety factor.

[seagypsy50]

Originally Posted by sailing_gal

LiFePo batteries are safe. A number of boat manufacturers are now installing them as standard equipment. It is the old lithium batteries that are not safe for a boat.

LiFePO4 batteries are NOT 'safe'..... they are safer but NO WHERE NEAR as safe as lead acid. Coming from the most safety aware industry in existence, aviation, I can assure you that we 1. Don't do research on .com sites, youtube sites, Wiki to determine safety critical information. 2. Do not take unnecessary risks and ONLY use proven technologies and listen only to experts. (737 Max aside.. it's a complex 'human issue'). Even the manufacturers of this chemistry state in their SDS's that they can generate enough heat to burst into flames, and that they are highly toxic when they do! ALL LITHIUM CHEMISTRIES are still treated under the SAME RULES for carriage by air - pretty much all but PROHIBITED! Just for the record on Lead acid, literally hundreds of thousands of light aircraft, small turboprops, and business jets have used Lead acid batteries for decades and they have never had cases of batteries melting down and bursting into flames in flight, or on the ground. A very few light jets used Nickel Cadmium but many of those were subsequently changed over to Lead acid. When Lithium batteries become the BATTERY OF CHOICE throughout aviation, then it's time to risk your life offshore with them. Being offshore with a raging fire is as scary as being in the air with a raging fire! Whilst the Lithium batteries in the Boeing 787 are not Fe ones, go look at the massive dramas that they caused. Look at the fix, and then decide if you want that sort of issue when a wind turbine and a solar cell will give you all the power you need. Seriously, it's just not worth the sleepless nights and SOLAS!

[seagypsy50]

Originally Posted by CapnBazza

It appears that LiFePO4 batteries are at least as safe as the better lead/acid old technology ones still in common use. I put the misinformed sods spreading rumours to the contrary in the same basket as the “Covid19 is a hoax” mob.

.... You're just being silly, huh?!

[CapnBazza]

Originally Posted by seagypsy50

.... You're just being silly, huh?!

OK, so are you one of the mob?

[seagypsy50]

Originally Posted by CapnBazza

OK, so are you one of the mob?

No.... Covid is very real.... and it needs to be treated as a highly communicable virus that can kill some people very quickly, as we keep seeing around the planet! No question or argument - this is based on scientific evidence not ill-informed hysterical nonsense of 'civil rights' or 'anti-vax fools'', or any other internet educated idiots.

The dangers of Lithium batteries of ALL chemistries are VERY REAL also, just some are more unstable than others. Why do you think aviation has almost entirely prohibited the technology, even when in a carton, partly charged and connected to nothing! It's not a 'joking topic' my friend!

As I attached to my last post, even the MANUFACTURERS who would love to sell these batteries to you state that EVEN the Fe chemistry ones are hazardous. I'm a professional chemist in addition to ATPL pilot and a 30 year member of ISASI (look that one up). WE work with approved data like SDS's which are a LEGAL DOCUMENT and other things like the IATA document I have attached for you to read. This is a topic that if taken lightly and if people make the wrong decisions, WILL result in loss of life at sea. Don't let that life be yours.

[CapnBazza]

Originally Posted by seagypsy50

No.... Covid is very real.... and it needs to be treated as a highly communicable virus that can kill some people very quickly, as we keep seeing around the planet! No question or argument - this is based on scientific evidence not ill-informed hysterical nonsense of 'civil rights' or 'anti-vax fools'', or any other internet educated idiots.

The dangers of Lithium batteries of ALL chemistries are VERY REAL also, just some are more unstable than others. Why do you think aviation has almost entirely prohibited the technology, even when in a carton, partly charged and connected to nothing! It's not a 'joking topic' my friend!

As I attached to my last post, even the MANUFACTURERS who would love to sell these batteries to you state that EVEN the Fe chemistry ones are hazardous. I'm a professional chemist in addition to ATPL pilot and a 30 year member of ISASI (look that one up). WE work with approved data like SDS's which are a LEGAL DOCUMENT and other things like the IATA document I have attached for you to read. This is a topic that if taken lightly and if people make the wrong decisions, WILL result in loss of life at sea. Don't let that life be yours.

A nice long and detailed post but let me quote someone you know very well “LiFePO4 batteries are NOT 'safe'..... they are safer but NO WHERE NEAR as safe as lead acid.“ Recognize the author? Yes it was you, earlier in this thread.

[seandepagnier]

lithium batteries are perfectly safe if done correctly


for lifepo4 this means you need a bms and fuse. you could argue if the boat burns down the results are bad but then you have other problems. it is safer than propane


for li-ion can also be perfectly safe, but to do this requires separating the individual cells (you may have several hundred 18650) so that thermal runaway from one cell cannot affect any other cell. The cells should be inside a pipe or container that prevents any fire from spreading and a thermistor for every cell. It seems most people think a battery should be all in one place rather than distributed throughout the vessel and they will therefore claim this chemistry is unsafe, but in reality li-ion can also be perfectly safe is the cheapest for the capacity and also readily available secondhand I got cells which were cheaper than lead acid for the same capacity!


lithium has a much higher efficiency than lead acid and can use more of the capacity. I don't think I will ever use lead acid again.