Who has Lithium Batteries?

[seagypsy50]

Originally Posted by CapnBazza

A nice long and detailed post but let me quote someone you know very well “LiFePO4 batteries are NOT 'safe'..... they are safer but NO WHERE NEAR as safe as lead acid.“ Recognize the author? Yes it was you, earlier in this thread.

Correct... and NOT safe enough for planes or yachts! That's my point!

[seagypsy50]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

lithium batteries are perfectly safe if done correctly



lithium has a much higher efficiency than lead acid and can use more of the capacity. I don't think I will ever use lead acid again.

Strongly suggest that you do some more reading, and in particular look into structural integrity and what happens with an internal short circuit. Do you know if your Li batteries are structurally designed for the purpose you are using them for? Are they designed so that after many hours of thumping in a storm (just when you DO NOT need another issue to deal with), there will be no compromise to their integrity and no chance of the catastrophic consequence of an internal short in a battery that holds so much energy? I'm yet to see any manufacturer produce a purpose built MARINE Li battery. Please send me a link if you have one. I'm happy to read!

I've spent a lot of time both airborne and well out of reach of a fast rescue at sea. So when new battery technology manufacturers themselves point out in their own safety documents that there is a risk of "H251 SELF-HEATING; MAY CATCH FIRE" - it's a step too far for me.

Perhaps you wander around the deck at 25 kts or at night with no harness too. Well, you'll get away with that for a long time, but ask the great French yachtsman Eric Tabarly how that ends!!

Yachts are not places for unnecessary risk taking!

[ThereAndBack]

Originally Posted by seagypsy50

Strongly suggest that you do some more reading, and in particular look into structural integrity and what happens with an internal short circuit. Do you know if your Li batteries are structurally designed for the purpose you are using them for? Are they designed so that after many hours of thumping in a storm (just when you DO NOT need another issue to deal with), there will be no compromise to their integrity and no chance of the catastrophic consequence of an internal short in a battery that holds so much energy? I'm yet to see any manufacturer produce a purpose built MARINE Li battery. Please send me a link if you have one. I'm happy to read!

I've spent a lot of time both airborne and well out of reach of a fast rescue at sea. So when new battery technology manufacturers themselves point out in their own safety documents that there is a risk of "H251 SELF-HEATING; MAY CATCH FIRE" - it's a step too far for me.

Perhaps you wander around the deck at 25 kts or at night with no harness too. Well, you'll get away with that for a long time, but ask the great French yachtsman Eric Tabarly how that ends!!

Yachts are not places for unnecessary risk taking!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5E30u-66VI

[Steve DAntonio]

Originally Posted by seagypsy50

LiFePO4 batteries are NOT 'safe'..... they are safer but NO WHERE NEAR as safe as lead acid. Coming from the most safety aware industry in existence, aviation, I can assure you that we 1. Don't do research on .com sites, youtube sites, Wiki to determine safety critical information. 2. Do not take unnecessary risks and ONLY use proven technologies and listen only to experts. (737 Max aside.. it's a complex 'human issue'). Even the manufacturers of this chemistry state in their SDS's that they can generate enough heat to burst into flames, and that they are highly toxic when they do! ALL LITHIUM CHEMISTRIES are still treated under the SAME RULES for carriage by air - pretty much all but PROHIBITED! Just for the record on Lead acid, literally hundreds of thousands of light aircraft, small turboprops, and business jets have used Lead acid batteries for decades and they have never had cases of batteries melting down and bursting into flames in flight, or on the ground. A very few light jets used Nickel Cadmium but many of those were subsequently changed over to Lead acid. When Lithium batteries become the BATTERY OF CHOICE throughout aviation, then it's time to risk your life offshore with them. Being offshore with a raging fire is as scary as being in the air with a raging fire! Whilst the Lithium batteries in the Boeing 787 are not Fe ones, go look at the massive dramas that they caused. Look at the fix, and then decide if you want that sort of issue when a wind turbine and a solar cell will give you all the power you need. Seriously, it's just not worth the sleepless nights and SOLAS!

I'm not advocating for LFP per se, however, much the same could be said of gasoline and LP gas, highly explosive, flammable, dangerous etc. And yet, we've come to terms with these fuels. As an aside, Lithionics LFP batteries are air-shippable, and UL Listed.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by seagypsy50

I've spent a lot of time both airborne and well out of reach of a fast rescue at sea. So when new battery technology manufacturers themselves point out in their own safety documents that there is a risk of "H251 SELF-HEATING; MAY CATCH FIRE" - it's a step too far for me.

Did you read where I mentioned you have to distribute the battery so that if any cell explodes it will not cause a chain reaction with the other cells? You can't just pack a large lion battery into a small box, it must be distributed throughout the boat and contained in a way that shorting a cell is only an inconvenience. virtually all phones and laptops use this battery I have one sitting on me right now.



gasoline and/or propane (which I use neither) is a lot more dangerous

Perhaps you wander around the deck at 25 kts or at night with no harness too. Well,

I never wore a harness and sailed in much more than 25 knots and don't consider it a risk and don't have lifelines. I read about stories of people who died because their lifelines or harness failed.



What is a real risk is flying airplanes. You put everyone below you at risk as you could crash onto them and kill them. While continuing to pump more and more co2 into the air since airplanes consume vast quantities of fuel while my engine-free boat consumes none. This is all without any concern for future generations, while 6 out of 7 people on the world have never and will never fly but they have to take on this risk? This is a real injustice. at least my risk is my own.

[Dtm67]

Sea Gypsy says lithium chemistry isn’t safe for airplanes. Yet every Boeing 787 flies with lithium cobalt oxide chemistry batteries. These are far more combustible than LiFePo4. Yes there were quality control problems back in 2013 but those were hammered out and thousands upon thousands of hours of safe flying since then.

The ntsb on their findings from the initial problems specifically stayed agnostic to lithium chemistries and faulted Boeing’s quality control issues for the issues

And there is this:

“Lithium-ion batteries have been a significant part of aviation for the past decade. Applications have been used in systems such as avionics backup power supplies, emergency lighting, ELTs, powering auxiliary equipment (crew cabin phones, cabin doors), uninterrupted power systems (UPS), and engine start batteries for fighter jets and drones.

Lithium-ion technology has made its way into engine-start batteries for general, business and air transport category aircraft. This technology has further evolved and FAA Supplemental Type Certificate (STC) installations for lithium-ion engine-start batteries on various aircraft will be a reality in the near future, and the list of aircraft flying lithium-ion batteries is sure to grow rapidly over the coming years.”

https://www.aviationpros.com/engines...es-in-aircraft

Such scare mongering!

[seagypsy50]

Originally Posted by Dtm67

Sea Gypsy says lithium chemistry isn’t safe for airplanes. Yet every Boeing 787 flies with lithium cobalt oxide chemistry batteries. These are far more combustible than LiFePo4. Yes there were quality control problems back in 2013 but those were hammered out and thousands upon thousands of hours of safe flying since then.

The ntsb on their findings from the initial problems specifically stayed agnostic to lithium chemistries and faulted Boeing’s quality control issues for the issues

And there is this:

“Lithium-ion batteries have been a significant part of aviation for the past decade. Applications have been used in systems such as avionics backup power supplies, emergency lighting, ELTs, powering auxiliary equipment (crew cabin phones, cabin doors), uninterrupted power systems (UPS), and engine start batteries for fighter jets and drones.

Lithium-ion technology has made its way into engine-start batteries for general, business and air transport category aircraft. This technology has further evolved and FAA Supplemental Type Certificate (STC) installations for lithium-ion engine-start batteries on various aircraft will be a reality in the near future, and the list of aircraft flying lithium-ion batteries is sure to grow rapidly over the coming years.”

https://www.aviationpros.com/engines...es-in-aircraft

Such scare mongering!

Yes... I intimately know about the 787, and it was the FIRST AIRCRAFT TYPE GROUNDED GLOBALLY since 1979 and BECAUSE OF THOSE LITHIUM BATTERIES

You really make me laugh with your response as it's so typical of internet educated people with 10% of the facts - but are suddenly damn experts.

Go and see how much money and time was spend on an 85kg structure with all sorts of safety features just to make the installation safe. People I KNOW were involved in this very investigation and modification.

You should also educate yourself on the HUGE difference between Lithium ion and the Lithium Metal batteries..... Being lectured to by an amateur is a risk more and more ofter these days as people seem to think that a couple of hours internet research = multiple formal university qualifications and 35 years of professional experience.... Usually I won't waste my time responding... but it was a funny post

[seagypsy50]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

Did you read where I mentioned you have to distribute the battery so that if any cell explodes it will not cause a chain reaction with the other cells? You can't just pack a large lion battery into a small box, it must be distributed throughout the boat and contained in a way that shorting a cell is only an inconvenience. virtually all phones and laptops use this battery I have one sitting on me right now.



gasoline and/or propane (which I use neither) is a lot more dangerous



I never wore a harness and sailed in much more than 25 knots and don't consider it a risk and don't have lifelines. I read about stories of people who died because their lifelines or harness failed.



What is a real risk is flying airplanes. You put everyone below you at risk as you could crash onto them and kill them. While continuing to pump more and more co2 into the air since airplanes consume vast quantities of fuel while my engine-free boat consumes none. This is all without any concern for future generations, while 6 out of 7 people on the world have never and will never fly but they have to take on this risk? This is a real injustice. at least my risk is my own.

So you do understand the significant difference between the examples of LPG, gasoline etc etc and batteries..... I hope so! However just in case you haven't thought it through..

Each and every step of the process of storage and use of those materials, you can control and make safe by both what you do, and by ensuring that your boat and it's equipment meets ALL the statutory requirements. HOWEVER, you personally have somewhere between diddly squat and very little control over a multitude of reasons that these time bombs that are forever making entertainment on youtube, exploding into flames all over the wolrd on a weekly basis in consumer goods, against the side walls of houses, in cars and yes in 787's until a lost of changes were made, but they still sometimes set off alarms for various reasons.....

Things aren't always as simple as a surface examination might make them look. That's why we have highly qualified people investigate occurrences and then formulate regulations and changes to make various activities 'idiot proof' where possible, or otherwise as safe as possible.

Not wearing a harness in the way you describe would have you thrown off every race yacht I've raced on around the planet over the years. Stupidity is never tolerated as it put the whole crew at risk. It's simply NOT on. I hope you've done an approved SSSC. You'd gain hugely from it. Do you know who Eric Tabarly is - look him up. If it happened to him - we are all at risk.

[Michael Cobbe]

I have posted many times Lithium batteres catch fire.

Why Lithium Batteries Catch Fire or Explode
The partitions or coating are fairly fragile, so they can be punctured. If the battery is damaged, a short occurs. This spark can ignite the highly reactive lithium. Another possibility is that the battery can heat to the point of thermal runaway

[Gerrit Coetzee]

Originally Posted by ThereAndBack

Battleborn batteries are warrantied as drop in replacements for LA batteries. You don't have to change your charge sources. I use them. They work.

I am eager to learn more:
Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery - 100Ah 12v at $1400.

Can someone please elaborate on the Pylontech Lithium Ion 3.5kW US3000 at $1,150

Then weigh in the also 3,5kw Super Capacitor batteries. 1,000,000 cycles. 48v/24v/12v outlets. 99.9% discharge capability. (I think they are of lithium internals with capacitors). Quickest charge. Lightweight at 45kg for 3,5kw power is the equivalent of 17 batteries. Built in battery charger and built in MPPT. I know not much more, but I wish somebody will buy and test and report on it. @ $2000 it seems like big bang for your buck. I cannot do the test myself, as I am not at my boats.

At https://www.gwstore.co.za/product/si...energy-module/ they sell 1kwh at $850

This thread is actually about a survey, thus I might be out of context since there are other battery threads too.

Yet, I remain curious, as the super Capacitor batteries seems cheaper for what you get.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by seagypsy50

No.... Covid is very real.... and it needs to be treated as a highly communicable virus that can kill some people very quickly, as we keep seeing around the planet! No question or argument - this is based on scientific evidence not ill-informed hysterical nonsense of 'civil rights' or 'anti-vax fools'', or any other internet educated idiots.

The dangers of Lithium batteries of ALL chemistries are VERY REAL also, just some are more unstable than others. Why do you think aviation has almost entirely prohibited the technology, even when in a carton, partly charged and connected to nothing! It's not a 'joking topic' my friend!

As I attached to my last post, even the MANUFACTURERS who would love to sell these batteries to you state that EVEN the Fe chemistry ones are hazardous. I'm a professional chemist in addition to ATPL pilot and a 30 year member of ISASI (look that one up). WE work with approved data like SDS's which are a LEGAL DOCUMENT and other things like the IATA document I have attached for you to read. This is a topic that if taken lightly and if people make the wrong decisions, WILL result in loss of life at sea. Don't let that life be yours.

Did you ever heard about LTO = lithium titanate oxid? Used in space which is more critical and selective then aviation.And in 100000+ Public buses in Korea....
safest battery on the planet...no fire, no thermal runaway, no acid explosions (yes a lead acid can explode if the over pressure valve is clocked and battery is gassing out due to eg a faulty regulator). you can even drill into the LTO battery while using it. And if you replace propane with induction cooking because an LTO can charge and discharge at 10C (so even a small battery is running a 5kw inverter) you get rid of explosion and poisoning risk too while you don’t have to provision it any more, one resource less to manage and buy.
All of this an insurance will like and approve..mine did as I asked in written if an LTO upgrade is covered which they did.

Still prohibited to transport LTO on a plane. why because aviation regulation is ****ing slow, horrible expensive To change and transporting LI with special license like UPS is high margin business (one of the only ones remaining)....or in other words aviation slows down technical development and spread of a safe lithium battery.
That is the reason I still don’t have my safe LTO and no propane anymore as no company is able to ship or fly them to the Canary Islands due to this regulation. A very uncomfortable one week upwind sail to Portugal will solve this issue soon....

[dnight]

We have them. 18 months ago we purchased 4 x 300 Ahr Sinoply prismatic cells direct from China, a 123 Smart BMS, and 2 x 120A relays for the charge and load busses. One of the best "upgrades" we've made to the boat. The insurance company didn't seem to care, or perhaps they skim read the email I sent and said all was good. The old lead acids used to struggle running at 80A for the microwave for 5 or 10 minutes, the new lithium punches that out of the ring. I used to be a power Nazi, now I don't care.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Gerrit Coetzee

I am eager to learn more:
Battle Born LiFePO4 Deep Cycle Battery - 100Ah 12v at $1400.

Can someone please elaborate on the Pylontech Lithium Ion 3.5kW US3000 at $1,150

Then weigh in the also 3,5kw Super Capacitor batteries. 1,000,000 cycles. 48v/24v/12v outlets. 99.9% discharge capability. (I think they are of lithium internals with capacitors). Quickest charge. Lightweight at 45kg for 3,5kw power is the equivalent of 17 batteries. Built in battery charger and built in MPPT. I know not much more, but I wish somebody will buy and test and report on it. @ $2000 it seems like big bang for your buck. I cannot do the test myself, as I am not at my boats.

At https://www.gwstore.co.za/product/si...energy-module/ they sell 1kwh at $850

This thread is actually about a survey, thus I might be out of context since there are other battery threads too.

Yet, I remain curious, as the super Capacitor batteries seems cheaper for what you get.

Super capacitors have lower energy density and high self discharge rates. There are uses for super capacitors but not sure a marine house bank is the best place.

[seagypsy50]

You can lead a mule to water, but .... you know the rest.

Always interesting to read about boats going up in flames and what caused it.... Guess we'll start seeing a lot of battery fires before people see sense, at least those who haven't gone overboard because of poor seamanship, and then expect people to risk themselves to rescue them. Same goes for ill-informed equipment choices.

Anyway enough time wasted on this forum, Darwin... do your work

[CapnBazza]

Originally Posted by seagypsy50

You can lead a mule to water, but .... you know the rest.

Always interesting to read about boats going up in flames and what caused it.... Guess we'll start seeing a lot of battery fires before people see sense, at least those who haven't gone overboard because of poor seamanship, and then expect people to risk themselves to rescue them. Same goes for ill-informed equipment choices.

Anyway enough time wasted on this forum, Darwin... do your work

Are you worried about the fire you have to make on board to send out smoke signals? Try vhf radios or mobile phones, they are “new” but work quite well.