Why did you buy golf cart batteries when they were so inferior.

[Fuss]

I just have to ask this question after the huge support for lead batteries on the "Lead is Dead" thread.

There was always a much better solution than golf cart batteries or marine batteries. As Sailorboy1 openly stated...if he was able to get 10 years out of golf cart batteries he probably would not have moved to Lithium.

Until recently these "Marine" or Golf Cart batteries were not even self watering... can you believe that ....most had to take the top off to put the water in.

The best batteries in the past for house banks was 2v Fork truck cells.

But only very few sailors used them...the rest used Golf Cart or so called marine deep cycle...oh dear oh dear...

So what was the advantage of fork truck 2v cells in the past.


- they lasted 16 years or even 18 ... I sometimes, when all was disconnected, Boiled mine at 32v for a bit.
Oh yes, you could imagine how a thread with these comments in the past would have gone...
Oh...I'm digressing again..

- 2v Fork truck batteries took up less space for a given capacity and had less horrible long cabling.
- They watered themselves through their self watering technology.

- You won't find any golf cart batteries in a fork truck...because they would not last at all... do you think that the fork truck driver cares about batteries like you do? no, they don't, they crawl the completely flat truck back to the charger, go for a short smoko and get back in it and go again.
That's why they need the most robust cells ever made.

- Just imagine, you could have had the all electric galley years ago with 2v cells , but no...you were all still fighting over the safety and benefits of gas on board... another oh dear oh dear.

And even though I have now explained what a huge mistake you made not having fork truck batteries in the past, you are going to repeat it all again buy sticking with your horrible lead batteries when the Lifepo4 alternative is so obviously better, even more obviously better than fork truck 2v cells were, when compared to golf cart batteries in the past.

16 years... they lasted 16 years. Oh, I already said that

[hpeer]

You can get golf cart batteries almost anywhere.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by hpeer

You can get golf cart batteries almost anywhere.

and they are pretty proven and a good good deal for the dollar

when I got my last set of LFP I could have gotten golf cart batteries for less than half the cost and if I have been a weekend cruiser they would have been just fine for my use

Never thought batteries would become a "gun" topic

[kayakerChuck]

I have an O'Day 30.

How good of a solution do I need?

[rslifkin]

Golf cart batteries were always the bottom end of the "good" quality lead acid batteries. But for many people, they were easier to fit than some of the taller form factors.

Personally, my house bank is made of L16 form factor 6v AGMs until I'm ready to go to LFP (which will also involve some insurance concerns, as my current insurance won't cover boats with LFP batteries at all). They're only a few years old, but they do the job fairly well. The biggest operational concern is voltage sag under heavy loads. Needing to get them topped off pretty much daily is a concern, but a small one, as we have enough solar to get them topped off most days. The only things I'm not supporting with the batteries right now are the stove and water heater (those require the generator) but that's not really the fault of the batteries being lead based. That's a combination of my inverter setup not being big enough and the battery bank not being big enough to support the short term load of the stove even if I do upgrade the inverter. Air conditioning is shore/generator only as well, but I'm not sure if I care about changing that, as we try to avoid needing it when away from shore power in general.

We've now hit the point where prices of decent LFP are pretty close to AGM or good flooded lead, so unless major system changes are needed to support LFP price is no longer a big factor. So for me, the longer term plan is to upgrade the inverter and make a few other changes and at some point swap over to LFP batteries. No huge rush though, as the current system is working fine and for our current use of the boat, it still doesn't lead to very many hours on the generator (far less than the mains, we're a powerboat). I'd prefer not to have to replace the lead bank with more lead, but if I end up needing to replace before I get the logistics of LFP sorted out, it's not the end of the world. Worst case I replace that next set early and find a new home for the still-good lead batteries.

As far as start batteries, I expect to stick with AGM for those. I have no reason to change there, lead start batteries are cheap enough, easily available, they do the job fine, and they'll be used as an alternator buffer when I go to LFP house batteries. Lifespan hasn't been an issue either. My start batteries are both from early 2018 and still doing their jobs just fine. They never get cycled, just drawn down a hair for engine start and then topped back off, so they live a very easy life.

There's no questioning that LFP is better than lead in most ways, but that doesn't inherently mean that lead isn't still adequate for some use cases. There's always a point where something is better, but not enough or in ways you care about to be worth changing. For other use cases the switch can't come soon enough.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Never thought batteries would become a "gun" topic

Its a "gun topic" only to those people who insist that there is only one answer for all boats, and only they are smart enough to see that.

The right answer is IT DEPENDS. I see people who use their boats for daysails and a handfull of weekend trips a year brag about their lithium batteries, and I think of the amount of time it will take to payback that investment, and I just wonder what they are thinking.

For me, the costs and hassles of installing a Li battery bank in compliance with my insurance company's requirements make the change over cost prohibitive. Maybe in 5 or 8 years when my gel system packs it in I'll swap over. but in the meantime I am not ripping out a perfectly functioning system that meets all my needs every day no matter if I am sailing, at anchor, or tied to shore power.

For someone buying a new boat that will be used for long range cruising with a large house load for comfortable living, Li would be the obvious choice, and I would wonder why a LA system was chosen. Probably the same for someone with an existing boat who has to redo an old electrical system from the hull. For most other people the cost/benefit of the switch is not always clear cut.

Some people need to justify their choice of technology by trying to convince everybody else that it is the ONLY right way of doing things. And some people are much more comfortable with simple answers like that instead of "it depends" because you know, thinking is hard.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by Fuss

I just have to ask this question after the huge support for lead batteries on the "Lead is Dead" thread.

There was always a much better solution than golf cart batteries or marine batteries. As Sailorboy1 openly stated...if he was able to get 10 years out of golf cart batteries he probably would not have moved to Lithium.

Until recently these "Marine" or Golf Cart batteries were not even self watering... can you believe that ....most had to take the top off to put the water in.

The best batteries in the past for house banks was 2v Fork truck cells.

But only very few sailors used them...the rest used Golf Cart or so called marine deep cycle...oh dear oh dear...

So what was the advantage of fork truck 2v cells in the past.


- they lasted 16 years or even 18 ... I sometimes, when all was disconnected, Boiled mine at 32v for a bit.
Oh yes, you could imagine how a thread with these comments in the past would have gone...
Oh...I'm digressing again..

- 2v Fork truck batteries took up less space for a given capacity and had less horrible long cabling.
- They watered themselves through their self watering technology.

- You won't find any golf cart batteries in a fork truck...because they would not last at all... do you think that the fork truck driver cares about batteries like you do? no, they don't, they crawl the completely flat truck back to the charger, go for a short smoko and get back in it and go again.
That's why they need the most robust cells ever made.

- Just imagine, you could have had the all electric galley years ago with 2v cells , but no...you were all still fighting over the safety and benefits of gas on board... another oh dear oh dear.

And even though I have now explained what a huge mistake you made not having fork truck batteries in the past, you are going to repeat it all again buy sticking with your horrible lead batteries when the Lifepo4 alternative is so obviously better, even more obviously better than fork truck 2v cells were, when compared to golf cart batteries in the past.

16 years... they lasted 16 years. Oh, I already said that

Forklift batteries are great but they almost universally won't fit in most sailboats unless a space has been specifically engineered for them. They are too tall for most users unless you can fit them into the keel cavity (most cells being over 23 inches tall). And forklift batteries are no more self watering than golf cart batteries. You still need a watering system for them, but well cared for they can last a very long time, but they a re also very very heavy. They are essentially 2v traction cells

I'm currently on year 8 for my golf cart cells. and the last few years I've been "of-grid" the whole time no plugging in to shore power for me, BUT I do take care of them and water them regularly. I will likely replace them next year as they are starting to show less capacity than they used to. I'm likely down 5-10% from original. But I've also spent a lot of time makeing my boat efficient.

[fox9988]

I like cheap and functional. I bought 4 used golf cart batteries and a used FLA start battery, they work fine in my boat for now.

[emilecantin]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

Some people need to justify their choice of technology by trying to convince everybody else that it is the ONLY right way of doing things. And some people are much more comfortable with simple answers like that instead of "it depends" because you know, thinking is hard.

That's really it, isn't it? Let me break that "it depends" down in simple terms:


1. Does your current system work for you? Don't change anything. DONE.
2. Can you charge your batteries to 100% every single day? Either you plug in at the marina (daysailor), you motor all the time (trawler), or you just have a ridiculously oversized solar array? You can probably stay with lead. DONE.
3. Are you cruising (this is cruisersforum, after all) and spending a significant amount of time off-grid (weeks at a time without plugging in)? Are you struggling to charge your batteries to 100%? Are your batteries always in a in-between state where you put back in what you take out, but not that much more? Yeah, lithium might be for you and you should really look into it.
4. Are you building a boat's electrical system from scratch? You should really look into lithium even if you said yes to #2, because lithium will still work in these situations, and also solve #3.


Also, in my opinion there's 2 ways to migrate to lithium in an existing boat, depending on your needs & budget:
1. Full-on integrated system with external BMS that can control & communicate with all charging sources, INCLUDING an alternator regulator. (Integrated BMSes that have WIRED external communication can also work here).
2. Budget install with a non-communicating drop-in (bluetooth doesn't count), where the alternator (and all non-compatible charging sources) is connected to the lead start battery, and an Orion DC-DC charger is used to charge the lithium bank whenever the start battery is being charged.


#2 has the advantage that you can start reaping benefits from lithium right away, and upgrade your charging sources over time. Might not be ABYC compliant, though.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by emilecantin

That's really it, isn't it? Let me break that "it depends" down in simple terms:


1. Does your current system work for you? Don't change anything. DONE.
2. Can you charge your batteries to 100% every single day? Either you plug in at the marina (daysailor), you motor all the time (trawler), or you just have a ridiculously oversized solar array? You can probably stay with lead. DONE.
3. Are you cruising (this is cruisersforum, after all) and spending a significant amount of time off-grid (weeks at a time without plugging in)? Are you struggling to charge your batteries to 100%? Are your batteries always in a in-between state where you put back in what you take out, but not that much more? Yeah, lithium might be for you and you should really look into it.
4. Are you building a boat's electrical system from scratch? You should really look into lithium even if you said yes to #2, because lithium will still work in these situations, and also solve #3.


Also, in my opinion there's 2 ways to migrate to lithium in an existing boat, depending on your needs & budget:
1. Full-on integrated system with external BMS that can control & communicate with all charging sources, INCLUDING an alternator regulator. (Integrated BMSes that have WIRED external communication can also work here).
2. Budget install with a non-communicating drop-in (bluetooth doesn't count), where the alternator (and all non-compatible charging sources) is connected to the lead start battery, and an Orion DC-DC charger is used to charge the lithium bank whenever the start battery is being charged.


#2 has the advantage that you can start reaping benefits from lithium right away, and upgrade your charging sources over time. Might not be ABYC compliant, though.

All good points except for #2 (first list) regardless of what type of battery you base your system on, if you can't recharge in a single day, your system is not well designed. If you can't get get back to 100% in a single day in regular conditions, what makes you think you will get there in 2 days, 3 days? you'll just keep running a deficit until the bank is completely drained. Each of your sources of charge should be planned to be able to fully recharge your system after a 24h drain.

in my view, the reason to go lithium is really more about energy density than anything else.

[emilecantin]

I had that issue before I switched to lithium. I could put back what I took in, (i.e. I wasn't running a deficit), but I had a hard time getting to absorption on solar only (like by 3PM), and I rarely got to float.


Lithiums are perfectly happy with only bulk charge.