Working with Battery Monitors and Combiners

[ramblinrod]

For what it is worth, I don't currently use a commercial battery monitor. I monitor battery voltage, in such a way as to minimize effects of charge and load, on correlation to SOC.

Basically measuring voltage in the morning and evening with charge and load minimized, and estimating SOC based on this value, and taking a guess based on voltage when charges and loads are applied during the course of the day (which seems to be what the SG is doing if I interpret the information supplied by the designer correctly).

Personally I don't feel a need for ultimate accuracy. If I wake up while the sun is low, and all loads are off except the fridge, and the battery voltage is above 12.2 VDC all is well. If the forecast is sunny, I let solar (200 W) do its trick. If the forecast is partly sunny, I start the engine for 1/2 hour. If the forecast is cloudy, I start the engine for an hour. If it is not above 12.6 by sunset, I increase engine run time the following morning.

I have another 2 x 100W panels in the shop, that I suspect when mounted will help eliminate engine running unless 2 or more heavily overcast days in a row.

All this said, I totally understand those who wish to take the personal estimation out of the equation and allow some code to do it for them, to display SOC%. There is absolutely nothing wrong with adding convenience improving electronics (which is what all electronics really do), in fact, I wholly support it and make part of my living from it.

[john61ct]

Sorry but what a weasel, grasping at straws rather than just bowing out and admitting you're just throwing FUD around with no basis.

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

"This is why it is so important to keep SmartGauge permanently connected to one battery bank."

As before, Gibbo just means "as opposed to moving it from one bank to another", which is something you can easily do with a shunt-based BM.

Having a charge source that happens to be connected to another bank connected **only when charging** is just like any other charge source, not an issue.

If **you** still think this is an issue (really?), **and** still want to use a SmartGauge in that context, then use a one-way Echo Charge or B2B charger, or best of all, the SmartBank ACR **designed by the same inventor to only be used with this specific device**.

What a waste of bandwidth!

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

if it was designed to, and capable of, working well with multiple banks.

It is explicitly designed to work with multiple banks; not only when controlling SmartBanks for ACR functionality, but showing voltage of the primary bank.

The Bogart Pentametric is the only BM that I've come across designed to show **SoC** for 2 banks.

Very few setups need that anyway.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

For what it is worth, I don't currently use a commercial battery monitor.
...
Personally I don't feel a need for ultimate accuracy.

Which apart from endAmps Full, nothing but SG readings from a hydrometer gives you anyways.

I guess thanks are due for raising the issue by playing devil's advocate, helping to clarify things.

Apologies for my snark. . .

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Which apart from endAmps Full, nothing but SG readings from a hydrometer gives you anyways.

I guess thanks are due for raising the issue by playing devil's advocate, helping to clarify things.

Apologies for my snark. . .

John, name-calling is disrespectful and against forum rules.

Please use facts, logic, and reasoning to support your opinion.

If the designer states that it is intended for use on only one bank, then I understand that it is meant for use on only one bank.

Two banks connected via combiner intermittently via whatever means is not one bank in my interpretation.

PS, it is OK to admit when your opinion is proven flawed, instead of trying to change the subject, or becoming aggressive in an attempt to hide it.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

If the designer states that it is intended for use on only one bank, then I understand that it is meant for use on only one bank.

I did already apologize. And as I demonstrated your interpretation of "only" which is not even in your quote, is refuted by multiple facts inherent in the design.

Your continued insistence on ignoring the obvious consensus here leads me to conclusions that you would just cite as name-calling, so here is where I'll stop.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by john61ct

I did already apologize. And as I demonstrated your interpretation of "only" which is not even in your quote, is refuted by multiple facts inherent in the design.

Your continued insistence on ignoring the obvious consensus here leads me to conclusions that you would just cite as name-calling, so here is where I'll stop.

Apologizing while offending is no apology at all.

It does not absolve you of responsibility for your words or actions.

Your repeated attrmpts to offend, to stifle contributions to this forum is a form of bullying IMHO and unwelcome here, nor are they effective to support your position. In fact, I believe they bring your position into question, if you feel a need to resort to them.

I do not believe I have ignored anything of value.

I have taken yours and every posters position into consideration.

I disagree with your opinion.

Several other posters in this thread have stated agreement that the Smart Gauge is not accurate while charging. Some have stated it works fine for them with a combined starter bank. To those I suggest they heavily deplete the starter battery and re-evaluate.

The designer has stated it should only be used to monitor SOC on one bank.

I've posted my position, heard arguments from both sides, and believe my oriiginal position is correct. Had you or anyone posted inforation that would compel me to change my position, I would have.

You didn't, so I won't, and no amount of bullying will change that.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I suggest they heavily deplete the starter battery and re-evaluate.

Something that should never happen in normal operations.

And with the many devices I have suggested, wouldn't change anything, there are now many more solutions to address your concern if it ever turned out to be valid.

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

The designer has stated it should only be used to monitor SOC on one bank.

Yes, you are exactly correct in that last statement.

No one else here or anywhere else AFAIC, has suggested or imagined it could be intended for any other use.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Something that should never happen in normal operations.

And with the many devices I have suggested, wouldn't change anything, there are now many more solutions to address your concern if it ever turned out to be valid.

Yes, you are exactly correct in that last statement.

No one else here or anywhere else AFAIC, has suggested or imagined it could be intended for any other use.

In my experience, there are many occcasions where an isolated bank connected to a house bank via a combiner device, can become significantly depleted. This
Includes a starter, windlass, one or more thruster banks, an inverter bank, and even a house bank split in two because that is the way the owner wants it.

In all of those cases and instances, I don't believe a Smart Gauge will work well, and by accounts here and those I personally trust, it is not accurate while charging. If the vessel has solar and wind charging systems where it can be charging 24/7 and then real SOC can be going up and down as sun, wind, and load changes, I have to question just how useful the device would be.

[lateral]

For me, not having wind charger, I can see it having functionality as an adjunct to my ampmeter and volt meter.
As for coulomb counting I am never going to keep a BM calibrated so no point there.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

"This is why it is so important to keep SmartGauge permanently connected to one battery bank."

........that they feel it will not work well if one attempts to monitor multiple banks connected intermittently via a combiner.

I feel the designer would not state, "This is why it is so important to keep SmartGauge permanently connected to one battery bank", if it was designed to, and capable of, working well with multiple banks.

Rod

The SmartGauge is a one bank monitor. Who would expect it to monitor multiple banks? With rare exceptions all monitors, conventional coulomb counters as well as the SmartGauge, are designed to monitor one bank only. Combiners of any kind will have no effect on a monitor that is properly wired to one bank.

This is not news, at least to anyone who has read the manual of a battery monitor.

As far as the SmartGauge being less than accurate when charging that is known, based on Mainesail's testing approximately 10%. I agree that the SG will be inaccurate on a boat that is charging with solar throughout the day. It should be accurate in the evening after the solar charging ceases though.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

Rod

The SmartGauge is a one bank monitor. Who would expect it to monitor multiple banks? With rare exceptions all monitors, conventional coulomb counters as well as the SmartGauge, are designed to monitor one bank only. Combiners of any kind will have no effect on a monitor that is properly wired to one bank.

This is not news, at least to anyone who has read the manual of a battery monitor.

As far as the SmartGauge being less than accurate when charging that is known, based on Mainesail's testing approximately 10%. I agree that the SG will be inaccurate on a boat that is charging with solar throughout the day. It should be accurate in the evening after the solar charging ceases though.

As I have stated, a coloumb counter, when wired in accordance with instructions can only monitor one bank. If one attempts to monitor multiple banks joined by a combiner, they will be sorely disappointed.

However the Smart Gauge is just connected across a battery. When a combiner activates as they will on any boat that has one, it gets screwed up. There is no way to wire this so it only monitors one bank in a vessel with multiple banks joined by a combiner (with possibly the exception of the optional charge splitter device made by Smart Gauge, but I can't really figure what the heck that thing is doing by the brief description. Is it a combiner, (if so I can't see how the Smart Gauge can work accurately). Is it a proportional isolated charge voltage allocation device, that does not physically combine banks (then I could see how Smart Gauge could work on one bank sharing a charge source with another).

[waterman46]

I'm very surprised to hear a marine professional person recommending or using for himself, a "single battery bank for everything".

[lateral]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I use the Smartgauge to give me a very gross approximation of my battery status. Most of the time I find the readings to be off by 10%. Would I buy it again knowing what I know today? No.

I don't think it does anything more than showing voltage.

Do you have VSR or ACR?
Are you charging 24/7?
Thanks

[lateral]

QUOTE=ramblinrod;2456757]As I have stated, a coloumb counter, when wired in accordance with instructions can only monitor one bank. If one attempts to monitor multiple banks joined by a combiner, they will be sorely disappointed.

However the Smart Gauge is just connected across a battery. When a combiner activates as they will on any boat that has one, it gets screwed up. There is no way to wire this so it only monitors one bank in a vessel with multiple banks joined by a combiner (with possibly the exception of the optional charge splitter device made by Smart Gauge, but I can't really figure what the heck that thing is doing by the brief description. Is it a combiner, (if so I can't see how the Smart Gauge can work accurately). Is it a proportional isolated charge voltage allocation device, that does not physically combine banks (then I could see how Smart Gauge could work on one bank sharing a charge source with another).[/QUOTE]

Thing is it has PROOF OF SERVICE in exactly the scenario you have been describing. Exactly these concerns have been hashed out years ago and refuted by Merlin. There are multiple instances on the net.

What you are hung up about is its inaccuracy during combining/charging.
Well, hello, not surprised seeing as it is measuring voltage of combined bat bank /and/or charging voltage. So you are charging 24/7, don't use it.
If your using it to know when to stop charging, don't; Look at your ammeter
showing 0.5-1% C then stop charging and watch your SG settle to 99%....and go.... YES!
Then, I don't own one yet, but neither do you.
Pretty brave writing something off when you have no hands-on.