Wow - Induction Cooktop

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

Interesting topic ... and impressed by the test results. Never experienced in my life yet induction, even not on land based cooking.

On the boat I live I still use gas (propan), and the costs are huge, in my understanding. I don't know how it works for some of you guys outside of Europe. On the European continent we have a crazy EU regulation for the propan gas bottles to exchange. As re-filling is prohibited, we must buy a "new bottle" every time in exchange for the "old one" we overhand back to the shop.

Its a stupid rule in EU in my understanding, that for every year, the "new bottle" is stamped to extend the use (compared with the old bottle), I have to pay 6-8 Euros/year. E.g. I bring back a bottle, which was stamped to be used till 2024. The shop gives me a bottle, which is stamped to be used till 2027. Then I have to pay for 3 years x 6-8 Euros = 18-24 Euros, just for the new bottle without the filling. When I bring the bottle back, I wont get the money back. - Filling itself costs ~18 Euros for a 16kg volume. So in total I pay around 36-42 Euros. As I need a new bottle (of 16kg) every 2 months, it becomes expensive over the year. 250-300 Euros (inclusive one reserve bottle. (Rec.: Never happened to me, that I got a bottle from the shop which was stamped earlier than a bottle I brought back, only then I would get money back 6 Euros/year.)

Obviously its worth to think about alternatives, e.g. Solar + Induction as the energy outpoot seems efficient, beside the other benefits like "smell" and proof/re-certification of whole gas installation every two years (on recreation yachts).

Has anybody a cost calculation (excel sheet) abt the total investment and repayment, e.g. inclusive mounting solar panels, inverter / converter (for land based 230/240V connection and solar), stoven (Rec.: Mostly (99% I cook in my gas stoven.), induction pans & pots and batteries.

I just remember, that the DELOS crew invested last year in a big litium battery bank to switch from Gas to Induction.

Blog article of S.V. DELOS about their battery refit here.

Maybe also interesting to learn from long-term cruisers some infos what kind of induction and electric BBQ the DELOS crew uses here.

(Rec.: I have no direct link or bondages with DELOS. Just interesting to learn from such guys, right ?! [emoji2] )

Look up my thread about LiFeYPO4 and all electric galley, the most expensive part is the battery (5kEUR), it depends on your vision, what you want to do with all the electricity. We have a large bank to be 100 percent self sufficient in energy, water, refrigeration of food for up to 12 weeks and the convenience of a home kittchen, laundry, bakery, ice making, ironing, running power tools, electronics...

The refit includet, solar panels, stainless steel arc, Victron Quattro 5kVA inverter, Victron SmartSolar 150/100 MPPT controller, REC ABMS with programing interface and display, Victron BMV, 4 BlueSea ML-RBS solenoids and cabling material, fancy Siemens 4 burner variable surface hob, Neff convection oven, DIY install, also remodeling the galley with a bigger sink and storage space optimization, all electronic parts ordered on the internet, DIY concept and install, except the construction of the arc for the panels, total 15kEUR.

It was expensive but worth it. We can anchor out indefinitely until the 2 fridges and the freezer are empty. No need for water, energy plugs, marinas, propane - except for the Weber grill, one to two 3.4kg campinggaz bottles per year.

For the induction hob alone, a smaller battery could do the trick too, but we wanted 3 days bad weather resilience withou starting to save energy.

There is an 8kW Onan Generator too just in case, but it never runs.

We have a energy consumption comparable to a small household on land about 9.. 10kWh per day (or yearly 3500kWh), completely on solar and battery. It would be even cost efficient on land given the crazy high expenses for renewable energy taxes and water in Germany as comparisons.

[jmh2002]

I dont have the numbers to hand, but of course it will also depend on if are talking about:

- A home style full electric galley setup + LiPo battery bank able to cook anything and for extended time periods and not needing any gas onboard?

- Or just buying a cheap portable induction unit and adding some extra solar and battery capacity to your existing setup, and cooking say 3 times per day for 10 minutes each?

- I guess a lot of people making the transition end up with something in between those two possibilities.

Here is a good thread with the full electric galley setup which details the costs: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ey-201795.html

I'm guessing that a simpler setup could be done for half or a third of those costs.

It is not directly cost effective compared to gas without amortising over many years, especially if you already have a working gas setup onboard, BUT there are several other intangible costs that need to be considered:

- no more inconvenience of filling up gas ashore, swapping bottles, etc
- much less heat inside the boat
- much less condensation inside the boat
- much more self sufficiency

And, will you need a substantial electricity and battery setup anyway, for all the other electrical needs onboard?

Starting a new build or a doing a serious refit I think it makes total sense to go all electric galley in combination with the rest of the boat.

But just swapping to all electric is more about the convenience and advantages instead of direct immediate cost savings

(in total money spent, it's the opposite, a direct immediate swap to electric will cost more)

The few hundred euros that you mentioned for the cost of gas (250-300 euros, total, per year) is maybe the cost of one or two good solar panels, depending on their size...

(eg: I think CatNewBee has 5 x 330Wp solar panels - EDIT: 5 x BenQ Panels each 306 € =1530 € )

[jmh2002]

Ah, CatNewBee beat me to it. It is his Full Electric Galley thread that I linked to

Here is his cost break down:
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2640571

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Oh well, the money...

5 x BenQ Panels each 306 € =1530 €
Victron SmartSolar MPPT 150/100-Tr =809€
stainless steel frame inclusive labour =2000€
flexible wires and cable shoes etc. =500€
breaker, diodes, electronics stuff, =100€
LFP cells LYP1000AHC 4x1240€ =4960 €
massive copper rail 2m =50€
4x latching relay 500A 12V ML-RBS =600 €
REC Active BMS mit Display, Kabel, Sensor=545 €
other material (stainless steel screws, washers, shrink tube etc. =150€
Victron Quattro 12/5000/220-100/100 =3082€
Victron BMV-712=214€
Victron MK3 USB Interface =71€

so inclusive the oven and the induction cooktop it was an investment of round about 16000€.

All parts were bought online; research, engineering and installation all DIY except for the stainless steel frame for the panels.

All prices incl. 19% VAT

Not includet is the price of the vessel of course [emoji56].

It was not that expensive, it's a lot of high-end electronics.

[az_r2d1]

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

Interesting topic ... and impressed by the test results. Never experienced in my life yet induction, even not on land based cooking.

On the boat I live I still use gas (propan), and the costs are huge, in my understanding. I don't know how it works for some of you guys outside of Europe. On the European continent we have a crazy EU regulation for the propan gas bottles to exchange. As re-filling is prohibited, we must buy a "new bottle" every time in exchange for the "old one" we overhand back to the shop.

Its a stupid rule in EU in my understanding, that for every year, the "new bottle" is stamped to extend the use (compared with the old bottle), I have to pay 6-8 Euros/year. E.g. I bring back a bottle, which was stamped to be used till 2024. The shop gives me a bottle, which is stamped to be used till 2027. Then I have to pay for 3 years x 6-8 Euros = 18-24 Euros, just for the new bottle without the filling. When I bring the bottle back, I wont get the money back. - Filling itself costs ~18 Euros for a 16kg volume. So in total I pay around 36-42 Euros. As I need a new bottle (of 16kg) every 2 months, it becomes expensive over the year. 250-300 Euros (inclusive one reserve bottle. (Rec.: Never happened to me, that I got a bottle from the shop which was stamped earlier than a bottle I brought back, only then I would get money back 6 Euros/year.)

Obviously its worth to think about alternatives, e.g. Solar + Induction as the energy outpoot seems efficient, beside the other benefits like "smell" and proof/re-certification of whole gas installation every two years (on recreation yachts).

Has anybody a cost calculation (excel sheet) abt the total investment and repayment, e.g. inclusive mounting solar panels, inverter / converter (for land based 230/240V connection and solar), stoven (Rec.: Mostly (99% I cook in my gas stoven.), induction pans & pots and batteries.

I just remember, that the DELOS crew invested last year in a big litium battery bank to switch from Gas to Induction.

Blog article of S.V. DELOS about their battery refit here.

Maybe also interesting to learn from long-term cruisers some infos what kind of induction and electric BBQ the DELOS crew uses here.

(Rec.: I have no direct link or bondages with DELOS. Just interesting to learn from such guys, right ?! )

wow, that's just crazy. Here in the US we usually exchange the bottle too but you just pay for the refill which varies in price. Most places just take your old propane bottle, expired or not. The distributor will either trash them or re-certify them, clean them up and put them out for another 5 or 10 years.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Skip JayR

Interesting topic ... and impressed by the test results. Never experienced in my life yet induction, even not on land based cooking.

On the boat I live I still use gas (propan), and the costs are huge, in my understanding. I don't know how it works for some of you guys outside of Europe. On the European continent we have a crazy EU regulation for the propan gas bottles to exchange. As re-filling is prohibited, we must buy a "new bottle" every time in exchange for the "old one" we overhand back to the shop.

Its a stupid rule in EU in my understanding, that for every year, the "new bottle" is stamped to extend the use (compared with the old bottle), I have to pay 6-8 Euros/year. E.g. I bring back a bottle, which was stamped to be used till 2024. The shop gives me a bottle, which is stamped to be used till 2027. Then I have to pay for 3 years x 6-8 Euros = 18-24 Euros, just for the new bottle without the filling. When I bring the bottle back, I wont get the money back. - Filling itself costs ~18 Euros for a 16kg volume. So in total I pay around 36-42 Euros. As I need a new bottle (of 16kg) every 2 months, it becomes expensive over the year. 250-300 Euros (inclusive one reserve bottle. (Rec.: Never happened to me, that I got a bottle from the shop which was stamped earlier than a bottle I brought back, only then I would get money back 6 Euros/year.)

Obviously its worth to think about alternatives, e.g. Solar + Induction as the energy outpoot seems efficient, beside the other benefits like "smell" and proof/re-certification of whole gas installation every two years (on recreation yachts).

Has anybody a cost calculation (excel sheet) abt the total investment and repayment, e.g. inclusive mounting solar panels, inverter / converter (for land based 230/240V connection and solar), stoven (Rec.: Mostly (99% I cook in my gas stoven.), induction pans & pots and batteries.

I just remember, that the DELOS crew invested last year in a big litium battery bank to switch from Gas to Induction.

Blog article of S.V. DELOS about their battery refit here.

Maybe also interesting to learn from long-term cruisers some infos what kind of induction and electric BBQ the DELOS crew uses here.

(Rec.: I have no direct link or bondages with DELOS. Just interesting to learn from such guys, right ?! )

We didn't make it to Europe. Cost was a concern but it was for other reasons that we didn't go there. However, your report of the propane costs is shocking. We heat our water with propane, as well as cook, and use a 5 kg tank every 21 days. In Mexico it costs us USD $3.75 to refill. In 20+ years of cruising the average cost has been around $10, with $20 being high, and it has been available everywhere on our circumnavigation (with some exceptions where there was no local refilling station and we were required to do a bottle exchange. In those cases we decanted into our containers ourselves.) We carry a collection of adapters.

Plus, our bottles are nicely finished and powder coated and have our logo on them, so being forced to exchange would be a PITA.

Maybe I am thankful we missed Europe, I wonder if other costs are similarly higher.

[montenido]

I must be in the minority here, loving a propane stove in the galley. All my sailboats had propane galleys. My current boat has a glass-top electric stove which totally sucks. I must run the generator to use it, and it heats very slowly. I bought a single burner propane stove to use in the morning so that I can make coffee without starting the genny. The difference is amazing!

Based on this thread I ordered a single burner induction stove and it arrived yesterday. In a side by side comparison it boiled 2 cups of water over 2 minutes faster than my natural gas stove at home, which works very well. I will bring the induction burner to the boat and give it a whirl.

Thanks for all the great info here.

Cheers, Bill

[zboss]

Originally Posted by montenido

I must be in the minority here, loving a propane stove in the galley. All my sailboats had propane galleys. My current boat has a glass-top electric stove which totally sucks. I must run the generator to use it, and it heats very slowly. I bought a single burner propane stove to use in the morning so that I can make coffee without starting the genny. The difference is amazing!

Based on this thread I ordered a single burner induction stove and it arrived yesterday. In a side by side comparison it boiled 2 cups of water over 2 minutes faster than my natural gas stove at home, which works very well. I will bring the induction burner to the boat and give it a whirl.

Thanks for all the great info here.

Cheers, Bill

Huge difference between an electric cooktop and an induction cooktop... completely different beasts and I agree that electric cooktops suck.

After the first few times cooking with induction I felt like a caveman that we even had an explosive gas on the boat! In the space of our two propane tanks we could put 400-600 AH of lithium.

[wingssail]

Catnewbe has an elegantly engineered solution. It helps that he has a large catamaran as a platform and sufficient financial resources to execute the design. Great job!

Several others have demonstrated the viability of electrical galley powered by solar, most with less investment than Catnewbe, however, still the use of Lithium and other electric management system parts makes the installation expensive.

However, these installations violate one principle I have for my cruising yacht: Keep the important systems deadly simple and repairable with basic tools and supplies. I don’t mind if my toys are high tech, but I don’t want my important systems, such as cooking, power generation, and power storage (or other critical systems) to be high tech or complicated. On the other hand if you choose to remain in civilized areas close to vendors and merchants who can supply replacement parts and you have the technical skills to diagnose the problems (there will be problems) and financial resources to pay for it, Ok, go for it.

When I look at the parts list of these all electric boats I don’t even know what some of them are, and while I am sure I could come up to speed on them I wonder how complicated a problem diagnosis would be. If I am 50% across the Indian Ocean and my battery management system is down or I couldn’t recharge the batteries, could I restore operation in a few hours?

Reliability and simplicity on a cruising boat has some value, quite a lot in my opinion. I can see that electric galley’s and electric drives are coming, but maybe it’s a bit more in the future. I’m not sure I need to be on the bleeding edge, nor can I afford it.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Look up my thread about LiFeYPO4 and all electric galley, the most expensive part is the battery (5kEUR), it depends on your vision, what you want to do with all the electricity. We have a large bank to be 100 percent self sufficient in energy, water, refrigeration of food for up to 12 weeks and the convenience of a home kittchen, laundry, bakery, ice making, ironing, running power tools, electronics...

The refit includet, solar panels, stainless steel arc, Victron Quattro 5kVA inverter, Victron SmartSolar 150/100 MPPT controller, REC ABMS with programing interface and display, Victron BMV, 4 BlueSea ML-RBS solenoids and cabling material, fancy Siemens 4 burner variable surface hob, Neff convection oven, DIY install, also remodeling the galley with a bigger sink and storage space optimization, all electronic parts ordered on the internet, DIY concept and install, except the construction of the arc for the panels, total 15kEUR.

It was expensive but worth it. We can anchor out indefinitely until the 2 fridges and the freezer are empty. No need for water, energy plugs, marinas, propane - except for the Weber grill, one to two 3.4kg campinggaz bottles per year.

For the induction hob alone, a smaller battery could do the trick too, but we wanted 3 days bad weather resilience withou starting to save energy.

There is an 8kW Onan Generator too just in case, but it never runs.

We have a energy consumption comparable to a small household on land about 9.. 10kWh per day (or yearly 3500kWh), completely on solar and battery. It would be even cost efficient on land given the crazy high expenses for renewable energy taxes and water in Germany as comparisons.

Catnewbee has an elegantly engineered solution. It helps that he has a large catamaran as a platform and sufficient financial resources to execute the design. Great job!

Several others have demonstrated the viability of electrical galley powered by solar, most with less investment than Catnewbe, however, still the use of Lithium and other electric management system parts makes the installation expensive.

However, these installations violate one principle I have for my cruising yacht: Keep the important systems deadly simple and repairable with basic tools and supplies. I don’t mind if my toys are high tech, but I don’t want my important systems, such as cooking, power generation, and power storage (or other critical systems) to be high tech or complicated. On the other hand if you choose to remain in civilized areas close to vendors and merchants who can supply replacement parts and you have the technical skills to diagnose the problems (there will be problems) and financial resources to pay for it, Ok, go for it. But it's not for me at this time.

When I look at the parts list of these all electric boats I don’t even know what some of them are, and while I am sure I could come up to speed on them I wonder how complicated a problem diagnosis would be. If I am 50% across the Indian Ocean and my battery management system is down or I couldn’t recharge the batteries, could I restore operation in a few hours?

This electronic system also adds to the consequences of a lightning strike, one thinks.

Reliability and simplicity on a cruising boat has some value, quite a lot in my opinion. I can see that electric galley’s and electric drives are coming, but maybe it’s a bit more in the future. I’m not sure I need to be on the bleeding edge, nor can I afford it.

[Adelie]

The Delos folks have a different situation than most cruisers which led to their installing LiFePo.

1. They tend to have a much larger crew (4-6 total at a time) so much higher cooking demands than the typical cruising couple.

2. They have much more substantial resources than the typical cruising couple. My understanding is that they bring in significant support from Patreon etc. On the order of $4-17k per video. That equates with a significant yearly income. https://graphtreon.com/creator/svdelos

3. I believe they have gotten support from various vendors, whether deals or outright gifts. I forget if the battery supplier was one of them.



The larger question is whether you need a gourmet electrical system to make electric cooking work and you don't.



You need:

1. 100-150a-hr extra battery capacity,

2. 150watts or so extra solar panels,

3. Controller capacity for this extra panel,

4. Pure Sine Wave inverter with about 10% more capacity than the sum of nameplate outputs. (1800w 2 ring induction plate plus 1000w convection toaster = 2800w demand so you would want 3080w inverter, 3000w would probably be fine.)

5. Wiring for the lot.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Catnewbee has an elegantly engineered solution. It helps that he has a large catamaran as a platform and sufficient financial resources to execute the design. Great job!

Several others have demonstrated the viability of electrical galley powered by solar, most with less investment than Catnewbe, however, still the use of Lithium and other electric management system parts makes the installation expensive.

However, these installations violate one principle I have for my cruising yacht: Keep the important systems deadly simple and repairable with basic tools and supplies. I don’t mind if my toys are high tech, but I don’t want my important systems, such as cooking, power generation, and power storage (or other critical systems) to be high tech or complicated. On the other hand if you choose to remain in civilized areas close to vendors and merchants who can supply replacement parts and you have the technical skills to diagnose the problems (there will be problems) and financial resources to pay for it, Ok, go for it. But it's not for me at this time.

When I look at the parts list of these all electric boats I don’t even know what some of them are, and while I am sure I could come up to speed on them I wonder how complicated a problem diagnosis would be. If I am 50% across the Indian Ocean and my battery management system is down or I couldn’t recharge the batteries, could I restore operation in a few hours?

This electronic system also adds to the consequences of a lightning strike, one thinks.

Reliability and simplicity on a cruising boat has some value, quite a lot in my opinion. I can see that electric galley’s and electric drives are coming, but maybe it’s a bit more in the future. I’m not sure I need to be on the bleeding edge, nor can I afford it.

You are frightened of the comlexity, I do understand this.

I use the ML-RBS solenoids to control the busses of charge, discharge and legacy systems. One of the great benefits is, they do have a manual override push button, like a fuse, and a knob, to turn them off and diable them for maintenance. If you have trouble with the bms, push the button and you have a plain battery of 4 cells like a lead acid battery, no BMS or whatsoever.

I do agree on inverter, but still no problem, I have a second 2kVA inverter, just flip the swich, and also the Onan generator, that almost instantly can provide power vor the galley and all other things. All other stuff is like in any household, circuit breaker, appliances. Admitted they can die, but your propene system can also fail. No big deal either, there is the oven, and there is a propane grill just in case.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

You are frightened of the comlexity, I do understand this.

Not frightened, sir, just realistic, in some ways conservatively realistic. I find your comment a little condescending.

I've lived aboard for 33 years and cruised for 20+ years, and I am doing so now. I have a very comfortable and capable boat with complexity in some areas, simplicity in others. We have never been let down (never couldn't cook, never couldn't navigate, never couldn't operate the motor) I attribute that to simple and repairable systems.

I have learned through experience that components and systems fail, I've spent plenty of hours repairing things in remote areas of the world. A certain level of complexity exceeds the threshold of unreliability.

You have confidence in your system, I have confidence in my 33 years of experience and intuition of what is too much.

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Not frightened, sir, just realistic, in some ways conservatively realistic. I find your comment a little condescending.

I've lived aboard for 33 years and cruised for 20+ years, and I am doing so now. I have a very comfortable and capable boat with complexity in some areas, simplicity in others. We have never been let down (never couldn't cook, never couldn't navigate, never couldn't operate the motor) I attribute that to simple and repairable systems.

I have learned through experience that components and systems fail, I've spent plenty of hours repairing things in remote areas of the world. A certain level of complexity exceeds the threshold of unreliability.

You have confidence in your system, I have confidence in my 33 years of experience and intuition of what is too much.

Oh, sorry, I did not meant to offend you, I just wanted to point out, it is easy to override the BMS, and after that, it is a normal battery - charger - loads system, nothing more complex than any regular installation. There is resilience in place in regards of power generation and cooking opportunuities. Any system can fail, but this is normal on a boat, you always need a plan B. Most of the stuff is easy to monitor and troubleshoot, it is like Lego building blocks.

Also I chose major brands for the gear with large service networks, so I hope, I can get the parts needed shipped anywhere. Because I have planned and installed the system, I do know where to look at to trobleshoot it, not so easy with an undocumented factory install, where you need to reverse engineer or search for information.

[s/v Jedi]

What I find amazing is that someone:

- would rather haul propane bottles up and down filling stations rather than watch leisurely how solar panels gather energy for free

- would believe propane bottles are safer than LFP batteries

- prefer a propane cooktop with all the heat and moisture it creates in the interior over an induction cooktop

- doesn’t come up with the idea to move portable induction cooktops out into the cockpit/ aft deck area to create an instant outdoor kitchen where climates would make that a winner

- think charging batteries with solar panels is less reliable than alternators, gensets, shore power etc.

- post contrary views on public discussion fora and get offended when others don’t agree with them

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

What I find amazing is that someone:

- would rather haul propane bottles up and down filling stations rather than watch leisurely how solar panels gather energy for free

- would believe propane bottles are safer than LFP batteries

- prefer a propane cooktop with all the heat and moisture it creates in the interior over an induction cooktop

- doesn’t come up with the idea to move portable induction cooktops out into the cockpit/ aft deck area to create an instant outdoor kitchen where climates would make that a winner

- think charging batteries with solar panels is less reliable than alternators, gensets, shore power etc.

- post contrary views on public discussion fora and get offended when others don’t agree with them

Have missed you Jedi[emoji106]