Cost/Benefit Ratio of Offsoundings weather reports

[Mara Mae]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

Thank you. I try. *grin* Snipping like mad to get back to you.

This thread is definitely improving. I feel it might be my initiation and I have achieved "not-a-troll" status.


With no sarcasm intended at all, good for you. Okay - as long as you approach this adventure with eyes open. You will be limited in storage space and electrical power. Compromises will be necessary. As I think I said above, the boat is sturdy. The weak link is always crew. You'll generally be slower than a longer boat BUT a good sailor in a small boat is often faster than a mediocre sailor in a larger one.

My wife and I may invest a couple of hundred thousand in a more modern 40' but can't justify that cost outlay before crossing at least one ocean to see what it would be like to live and travel this way.





https://blackcatsystems.com/software...ather_fax.html is native on MacOS.

Bought, downloaded and registered. Thanks

If you have a Tecsun PL-880 or other HF/SSB receiver you don't need an SDR. I also have an SDR and have found that at HF the sensitivity and selectivity don't measure up.

Shopping for the Tescun PL-880 now.

Ok

With the Mac you certainly have a combi jack (TRRS) and getting from the receiver to the Mac needs something like this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...0?ie=UTF8&th=1 or this https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...0?ie=UTF8&th=1 .

pretty sure this is the same link twice.

Got it for the TRRS input but why is the splitter necessary?

The latter reminds me that if you use your Mac for navigation you WILL run out of USB ports. I use an Anker powered hub to avoid overloading the port on the laptop. See https://www.amazon.com/Anker-PowerIQ.../dp/B00VDVCQ84 . I picked it because it runs off 12VDC. You'll want an air/auto power adapter for your Mac also. The Tecsun PL-880 runs off USB power. There are alternatives - what I've listed is not only what I use, but works well enough to be in my delivery go kit.

I have a Thunderbolt dock that gives me a lot of usb and other ports.

If you have a full HF/SSB/Pactor (more on this later) you won't need the Tecsun or other receiver or the cable interconnect or the Black Cat software; you will need to be able boot Windows for Airmail. The weather fax demodulator in the Pactor modem is quite good.





HF/SSB/Pactor transfers data at 10,500 bps compared to Iridium at 2,400 bps. You'll see higher numbers for both due to data compression but they are both using the same algorithms. Power consumption is higher for HF/SSB. Initial cost is higher. The opportunities for community are higher. Weather fax is free. Gribs from Saildocs are free (Winlink) to cheap (Sailmail).

Satellite is cheaper, smaller, slower, and lower power. The running costs are a lot higher. For most people the break-even for long term cruisers between HF/SSB and satellite is about two years. The GO! in particular is intended to leverage phones and tablets. Getting gribs (see my previous tirade on the shortfalls of gribs) off your phone and onto your laptop is hard. Most people get it done with extra cost service from PredictWind. You get ONE text address which may not be a problem for a married couple. Email is through the text interface and very limited. GO! is better than no long range communication at all. That doesn't make it good. A 9555 phone will cost about double.

The InReach is less than GO! It is a tracker and SMS tool only. I have one and carry it because not every boat I walk on has any working long range communication. It's useless for weather in comparison to the weather fax.

You said you are interested in being unplugged. You can skip this next part. *grin* Starlink is going to be a game changer. Mr. Musk's schedule predictions for mobile do NOT apply to us. He misses schedules on a regular basis anyway. My prediction based on a career in turn-around program management of high tech systems is 2025 for the first availability of Starlink service for ocean crossers. I expect that to be a 200-250 watt (compared to the current terrestrial 100 watt) terminal on the boat. It will take at least another year to get down to 80ish watts. It will bring broadband to ocean crossing boats. I'm excited about it.



The status of being a moderator is a position of power, responsibility, and trust. Every word posted by any moderator reflects on the entire moderation team and on the forum in general. There is no place for mocking. There is no place for sarcasm. Like any other relationship with disparate power between the parties such things constitute harassment. Moderators should always reflect on their words before clicking Submit. Caesar's wife.

See https://competendo.net/en/10_Golden_...for_Moderators

I also commend bullet #2 here https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ork&page=rules

See responses above

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

The InReach is less than GO! It is a tracker and SMS tool only. I have one and carry it because not every boat I walk on has any working long range communication. It's useless for weather in comparison to the weather fax.

Only two seasons cruising from Texas to Bahamas and back, including a couple of GOM crossings, but have been very happy with our Inreach and a subscription to OCENS SpotCast for 72 hr wind and wave forecasts. OCENS is cheap at around $10 per month for unlimited forecasts. We turn off both subscriptions when not cruising.

[Mara Mae]

Is Tescun the standard? I have read mixed reviews. Is there better more "professional" quality out there for a SSB Receiver without going full blown ICOM 802?

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by PippaB

I disagree on this point, but I think some of that has to do with where people are sailing. North Atlantic? Pretty reliable. Large sections of the Pacific and Indian Oceans? A lot less so. I've been a ham for going on 40 years and I use HF/SSB and Pactor for our weather because I own one and I like using a radio, but I would not call it reliable in many instances. I think this needs evaluation by the individual along with all the other considerations of the where and how of the voyage.



.....

Over the last ten years I've primarily used SSB and Pactor 4 (first 3) to download weather, aka Gribs. While Pactorbp 4 can be decently fast, in practice offshore it isn't any faster than a sat phone iridiumgo on a consistent basis. When we started our crossing of the Indian Ocean we had to throw in the towel and buy an IridiumGo, as SSB connectivity is just too poor in this ocean and weather is really needed.

I doubt I'll go back to using the pactor as my primary source of weather.

As far as synoptic charts are concerned, they don't go out far enough for my planning. The timeframe they cover, say up to 96 hours, is the same timeframe that the Grib models do really well in.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Mara Mae

My wife and I may invest a couple of hundred thousand in a more modern 40' but can't justify that cost outlay before crossing at least one ocean to see what it would be like to live and travel this way.

I think this is smart - for two reasons: (a) the life is definitely not for everyone, more like a small minority are really suited to it, and (2) you will learn a ton and make a better choice of 'ultimate' boat later with that experience and knowledge. We learned an immense amount from our first boat which greatly shaped our second one, we would never have picked the 2nd one without the great learning experiences from the first.

The life is not really much like the books and magazines and vblogs present it - better in many ways and worse in many other ways. Being open to learning, and tenacity thru the bad spots (which there will be) are perhaps the two most important traits for success.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

.......

Do you realize that editing inside quotes makes quoting you in responses really irritating?

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Well, 'on the merits' ALL the top ocean racing navigators primarily depend on gribs for at sea routing, they basically all use either Adrena or Expedition.

Racing navigators, just like meteorologists, can infer the fronts and make adjustments to the expected wind fields. They also read the text discussions.

Originally Posted by PippaB

Stan Honey, who recommends the use of both Adrena and Expedition and is no slouch as a navigator and weather router, has made several presentations about why he doesn't follow the route spit out by the software.

Right. Stan knows what he’s looking at and as above infers the fronts and changes to the wind field. He certainly doesn’t let the computer route the boat. If he did, he might as well stay home.

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

.......

I don’t think it is realistic to compare an average cruiser to someone who studies meteorology.

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

Really - have you had your eyesight checked recently? (said in good humor, not a jab)?

It’s a gale and it’s west of what you labeled and it’s late to the party many hours after the sunoptics. What you have labeled as fronts is not where the fronts are and there are TWO. I've heard from two boats that counted on gribs and turned back.

Originally Posted by Mara Mae

See responses above

The Tecsun is not gold plated. It’s pretty good. I like that it has separate filters for USB and LSB, variable bandwidth filtering, and charges off USB (although 12VDC would be fine – just not 8VDC or 19VDC).

Your Thunderbolt dock serves the purpose IF it is separately powered. It isn’t hard to overload the laptop port a hub is plugged into. The GPS puck draws power. In my case I carry a small AIS receiver that draws power. My data stick draws power. The cell phone, inReach, and rechargeable pen light I plug in use power. Add up the loads and see if your USB-C port can supply that much.

[Mara Mae]

" The Tecsun is not gold plated. It’s pretty good. I like that it has separate filters for USB and LSB, variable bandwidth filtering, and charges off USB (although 12VDC would be fine – just not 8VDC or 19VDC). "

1. What is better than the Tescun?

Your Thunderbolt dock serves the purpose IF it is separately powered. It isn’t hard to overload the laptop port a hub is plugged into. The GPS puck draws power. In my case I carry a small AIS receiver that draws power. My data stick draws power. The cell phone, inReach, and rechargeable pen light I plug in use power. Add up the loads and see if your USB-C port can supply that much."

2. Yes to power Thunderbolt dock and in my current case it is Thunderbolt One.
3. What is a GPS puck?
4. You have an USB powered AIS receiver? If so which one? The Simrad VHF/AIS Transmitter/Receiver/GPS is at the top of my list.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Satellite photos! Oh yeah, we can also get them, and often do, over ssb/pactor.

If I could have only one form of external weather info it would be Satpix.

I use this software
https://wxtoimgrestored.xyz

One pic below from my boat some years ago - yes we were in the middle of a 'weather event' - and one from my home.

[El Pinguino]

Originally Posted by Mara Mae

1. What is better than the Tescun?


3. What is a GPS puck?.

The best thing about the Tecsun 880 and what sets it apart from all the other SSB capable portables is in my opinion the ease of tuning on SSB.
Do a search here on CF, you will see that I have waffled on at length on this subject in the past.

GPS puck? this sort of thing
https://www.thegpsstore.com/GPS-Unit...B-GPS-Receiver
simplest way of getting GPS into a laptop.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Mara Mae

1. What is better than the Tescun?
2. Yes to power Thunderbolt dock and in my current case it is Thunderbolt One.
3. What is a GPS puck?
4. You have an USB powered AIS receiver? If so which one? The Simrad VHF/AIS Transmitter/Receiver/GPS is at the top of my list.

1. Try here and sort on ratings (click twice for best at the top) https://www.eham.net/reviews/view-ca...ort=-avgRating .

Things I suggest are important other than radio performance are 12VDC or USB power.

Things I didn't get but would like is a grown up RF connector.

Things I did get that won't be as important to you include portability.

4. dAISy-2+ is receive only. For your use the SIMRAD that transmits as well as receives is better. You can feed AIS data to OpenCPN and other apps with a NMEA to USB converter from Digital Yacht or Actisense. You'll get boat speed, depth, wind speed and direction as well.

Originally Posted by El Pinguino

The best thing about the Tecsun 880 and what sets it apart from all the other SSB capable portables is in my opinion the ease of tuning on SSB.
Do a search here on CF, you will see that I have waffled on at length on this subject in the past.

GPS puck? this sort of thing
https://www.thegpsstore.com/GPS-Unit...B-GPS-Receiver
simplest way of getting GPS into a laptop.

3. That's exactly what I have. There are alternatives, including Bad Elf for position over WiFi which is great if you have WiFi only iPads.

[Breaking Waves]

[QUOTE=Auspicious;3505138]
Racing navigators, just like meteorologists, can infer the fronts and make adjustments to the expected wind fields. They also read the text discussions.... I don’t think it is realistic to compare an average cruiser to someone who studies meteorology.

so your argument, in simplified terms, is that (many or most?) cruisers as so ignorant that they can't read gribs so they need to have someone color features in for them? Idk, I can't speak for 'the masses' but many I have known are pretty good at weather. Some are not, some of those are interested and capable of learning and some are not. I have found it is pretty easy to show someone who is interested how gribs work and what to watch out for.

Again, my point was it is a fact (a) that you are in a minority and a fact (b) that many of those in other camps are knowledgeable and experienced and not there because of ignorance. And it is useful for 'the reader' to know that. That does not make your position wrong for you. Different horses for different courses.




What you have labeled as fronts is not where the fronts are and there are TWO. I've heard from two boats that counted on gribs and turned back.


pls check your prescription again. I labeled two fronts.
And their position is as close to the synoptic position as one could possibly infer (you can ofc only get a crude position from the synoptic). The smaller front is shown on the grib as extending further south than on the synoptic but if you look at the cape it is relatively low energy down there which is probably why the met guy cut the line off. And as I said, above, if you wanted more information on the fronts you would look at the cloud pics and CAPE grib and that would be true whether your base information was from the gribs or the synoptics.

t’s a gale and it’s west of what you labeled and it’s late to the party many hours after the sunoptics.

I find cruiser feedback on whether something is a gale or not to be inconsistent with Met definitions. Cruisers usually remember and talk about their highest gusts and that is typically how they evaluate 'gale or not'. The met definition is sustained winds - a 2 minute average in US terminology, different periods in different met services around the world - which is quite a bit lower typically than highest gusts. Very few cruisers have their wind set to anything like 2 minute averaging. In any case - as I said above, looking at that grib and also seeing the Cape energy in the nearby front, I would certainly expect and be prepared for some breeze there.

And get your glasses checked for the 3rd time because the location on the grib is pretty much identical to the synoptic (pretty much directly east of Hatteras on both presentations).

I think I would have known, as accurately as with any weather presentation (there is always a big grain of salt), what I was getting into with that grib. If some people did not - well yea, then also not sure they would have understood it from the synoptic presentation either.

There is quite a bit to like about grib routing work flow - you don't see it, and that's all good. I have no problem with that. I don't think there is a wrong answer here and I am not trying to win an internet argument. I was just trying to put some context on your 'claims'.

[quote/]
......

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Breaking Waves

so your argument

"Ignorant" is a loaded word. I'd say ill-informed and lacking confidence. If not there would not be such a market for weather routers. If not other boats would not be following me off the docks.

I'll also point out that real professional meteorologists have access we don't in building synoptics.

To my knowledge there is no effective way to compare today's 24 hour grib with yesterday's 48 which can be illuminating. If you know of a way, please share it. I can overlay them with synoptics.

You are creative in putting words in my mouth. The cruisers I spoke of turned back due to weather. There aren't many I give credence to about sustained winds any more than I do to estimates of significant wave height. VSOP data showed, for the time I first posted, the gale west of where you indicate and with circulation not at all apparent on the gribs you showed.

Remember that time marches on and the links I posted are always the most current Atlantic briefing package. I'll also point out that the US Navy Fleet Weather Center provides synoptics to the fleet.

[capn_billl]

Originally Posted by Mara Mae

Lots of good stuff here.

Comments and Precisions

1. My wife and I plan to cross from Nova Scotia to Ireland via the Azores. To see how we like ocean cruising before purchasing a bigger boat. BTW We met 35 years ago camping and like it. There are many people circumnavigating right now in Cape Dorys, PS31's, SC31, etc.. Anyway thats the plan to test to see if we like the lifestyle.

2. Never ruled out AIS I actually will purchase a Simrad RS40-B.

3. Never considered ignoring the mod just some of the name callers who called me a troll, braindead, uninformed, etc...

4. I am unaware that BlackCat is MacOS compatible. Seems to be only IOS. Maybe can get that into my Mac via my iPhone but would prefer to have the Tescun feeding right into a Mac app via SDR interface for MacOS.

5. The complexity, size, cost and amperage are currently the disincentives to installing an HF/SSB but your contrary opinion is exactly the experiential data I hoped to mine with my question.

6. Point taken on the hard dink as life raft query.

7. So you seem to be prioritizing HF/SSB over the Inreach and Go. Did I understand correctly. If so I will take a harder look at HF/SSB which I originally had leaned towards but thought perhaps was becoming obsolete with less HAM operators reporting now.

If you are looking at kilowatt SSB transmitters, yes, they are very expensive, and require licensing.

If you look at a SSB receiver only, they can be found under $100, require no license, and can easily be connected to a audio sampler (usb $20), and with free software give you weatherfax on a laptop.

SDR will also give you weatherfax.

I have imported weatherfax files into Active_Cpn.

Even without HAM, NOAA still broadcasts weather reports.

[Breaking Waves]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

To my knowledge there is no effective way to compare today's 24 hour grib with yesterday's 48 which can be illuminating.

Sure, the easiest way is to display them side by side - you can do that with almost any grib viewer. I suppose you could also import the two images into a picture program with opacity set to allow you to see both right on top of each other, but I have never done that. The two best routing packages give you other more complete options, but I don't think you have/use either of them. Those packages give you tool kits designed to highlight comparisons - usually, use to compare between two different models (like gfs vs EU) or between two different routings - but you can also use them to compare stability in forecast over time. Determining stability and confidence level in the forecast is an essential task to good use of any of these weather products and the routing programs are set up to make that easier, more automated.

This brings a big point in comparing gribs to Synoptics which your 'pros and cons' completely ignore. The correct comparison is not to view gribs as a stand-alone discrete weather map display - eg as a direct competitor to Synoptics (although even in that direct comparison it has several 'pros' which you don't ever mention, like the enormous number of data layers available , the ability to set exactly the zone you want to see maxmimum details of, and the longer time frame available - and yes there is actual information content in a 8 or 10 day for forecast - the details will ofc not be correct but if it shows a big system developing it is real information content worth starting to take considered action to mitigate).

Gribs are digital products that you can process with computer power, unlike Synoptics. That provides a whole lot of power that (I guess) you never see or use so you don't include it in your 'pros'. This is the fundamental reason that gribs are the first choice of racing routers - and I can tell you it also makes cruising passages more efficient if you invest a little in the knowledge to use it. You are a smart guy - I really suspect you would like and get value from the rputing packages if you gave them a fair shake, but I understand you are set in your ways and they are working for you so you see no point in changing and that's all fine.


circulation not at all apparent on the gribs you showed.

I really don't understand this comment - you really can't see the little wind arrows pointing in circulation around the big "L" in the middle? They are totally obvious to me, I simply can't understand how you can not see it.

in any case, I am off (sailing) for a bit here - good luck to you if you are going offshore.


Edit: just add one general comment here - 15 years ago, even perhaps 10 years ago, it was quite reasonable to assume that a skilled human could do a better job at complex pattern processing than a computer. Today, raw computer output can beat humans at chess, go, dogfighting fighter jets, and interpreting MRI scans (and many other medical 'diagnosis' tasks), and making 3-day track projections for Atlantic storms (the raw EU model beats both GFS and NOAA adjusted GFS), and many other such tasks. I really don't think it is any longer a slam dunk to assume that human 'modifications' will beat the best available computer models.

............

[Don C L]

ummm... lots of good info here, but I'm just really impressed Auspicious knows how to use the word "grok" appropriately.