Another Cape Hatteras Rescue

[Sailor Sailor]

Originally Posted by Mickeyrouse

Everybody carries at least one fully functioning, reliable manual bilge pump, right?

They should. And they should also carry a high capacity emergency manual bilge pump if they are heading offshore.

However, there seems to be a trend toward these happy-go-lucky inexperienced big boat owners who go offshore without storm sails, drogues, para anchors, etc. They do, however, have widescreen TVs, AC, refrigeration, sat phones, and complex networked electronics with GPS, all of which depend on the engines/generator and electrical system working. And they are encouraged in that regard by the folks selling stuff on these forums who promote comfort and convenience above all else.

So, with some flooding, the engine/generator/battery systems fail and they are then helpless. Hence, the vague "mechanical failures" issue arises. They are not equipped to sail in heavy weather. Time to call the shore for help on the sat phone.

Read the posts in this thread about a "dusty" bilge. It is difficult to maintain the standard bilge pump if it is never used. Even without a "dusty" bilge, with electric pumps, the standard manual is rarely used. The valves and hoses dry up. They may not work when needed.

The "dusty" bilge may also be misleading. Some of the newer AWBs and cruising catamarans have higher freeboard, wide sterns with greater initial form stability, and, because they are newer, better seals against the ordinary elements. Older, more seaworthy boats, may be narrower, have lower freeboard, and tend to be initially tender vessels and wetter, but with higher AVS for ultimate stability. Water washes over the side decks and bow in rough conditions, and is more likely to accumulate in the bilge until pumped out. All that freeboard and interior volume become a liability in high winds - the boat is more difficult to control. A "dusty" bilge does not necessarily indicate a more seaworthy vessel.

[carstenb]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

The "dusty" bilge may also be misleading. Some of the newer AWBs and cruising catamarans have higher freeboard, wide sterns with greater initial form stability, and, because they are newer, better seals against the ordinary elements. Older, more seaworthy boats, may be narrower, have lower freeboard, and tend to be initially tender vessels and wetter, but with higher AVS for ultimate stability. Water washes over the side decks and bow in rough conditions, and is more likely to accumulate in the bilge until pumped out. All that freeboard and interior volume become a liability in high winds - the boat is more difficult to control. A "dusty" bilge does not necessarily indicate a more seaworthy vessel.

We have dusty bilges. Of course, we also test our bilge pump before any passage (when we also test our manual pump). WE test everything on the boat every 6 months at least - including the pumps, electric and manual.

If you are a serious cruiser - these things are second nature

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Mickeyrouse

Everybody carries at least one fully functioning, reliable manual bilge pump, right?

Nope. We're a crew of 2 most of the time, so in pretty much any flooding emergency, there's not an extra person available for pumping. The available manpower is much better used trying to do something about the water ingress, controlling the boat, etc. We're on a powerboat, so by the time the electric pumps fail, we're either flooded badly enough that it's time to consider abandoning ship, or we have had no engines or generator for quite a few hours and have now run the batteries down. If help hasn't arrived by that point and we haven't stopped the flooding, it's unlikely we can save the boat.


In my mind, for any boat that operates with a small crew, having lots of electric pumping capacity and making sure that you can keep those pumps powered in all but the worst situations is far more useful than thinking a manual pump will save the day.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

Water washes over the side decks and bow in rough conditions, and is more likely to accumulate in the bilge until pumped out.

Narrower yachts and those with a lower freeboard can have dusty bilges.

Leaks are never a good thing. One advantage of normally dusty bilges is that any leak is immediately obvious. The source can be identified and can be fixed before it becomes serious.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Narrower yachts and those with a lower freeboard can have dusty bilges.

Leaks are never a good thing. One advantage of normally dusty bilges is that any leak is immediately obvious. The source can be identified and can be fixed before it becomes serious.

Or you just have slow leaks for years and years and they usually aren't a problem.

My boat leaks with water over the deck or a good rain. After several days of rain, the bilge pump might come on or I'll raise the switch to "empty" every month or 2.

Empty meaning down to about 1 inch or less in the bilge. (the narrow part about 3.8' down and 3"-4" wide.

Of course though, my bilge will hold many gallons before it even becomes a problem.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Or you just have slow leaks for years and years and they usually aren't a problem.

My boat leaks with water over the deck or a good rain. After several days of rain, the bilge pump might come on or I'll raise the switch to "empty" every month or 2.

Empty meaning down to about 1 inch or less in the bilge. (the narrow part about 3.8' down and 3"-4" wide.

Of course though, my bilge will hold many gallons before it even becomes a problem.

The point is that you are unlikely to detect a new leak, at least in the early stages. The new leak may or may not be a serious problem or it may develop into a serious problem with time or when sailing in offshore conditions. If you do not know a new leak exists, you cannot assess the significance of the problem.

Keeping the bilges dry has other advantages, such as reducing condensation, dampness and smells so it is desirable not just from a seaworthiness point of view, but I accept it may not be feasible on many older fibreglass yachts.

Water ingress was apparently a factor in abandoning this vessel. Whether the leak was present before departing and therefore could have been fixed before encountering the rough conditions is unknown.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

The point is that you are unlikely to detect a new leak, at least in the early stages. The new leak may or may not be a serious problem or it may develop into a serious problem with time or when sailing in offshore conditions. If you do not know a new leak exists, you cannot assess the significance of the problem.

You would absolutely know if you had a new leak if you know your boat, and most of us that sail regularly know our boats.

Sort of similar to knowing if your old jeep is suddenly using more oil than it should. You just know when you check it if you know your old jeep....

My bilge pump almost never comes on and especially not when I'm out sailing my weekend/vacation cruises.

Plus I usually check the bilge every few days when out on the boat for those days.

Point is with a narrow bilge like mine it doesn't take much water to cause the bilge pump to come on.

Just letting the water from the 10-20 lb bag of ice I bought for my "cruise" drain from my cooler into the bilge will cause it to come on.

Also, when sailing or staying on the boat I would hear the bilge pump if it came on. It's about 2'-3' from where I sleep and use my computer....... almost straight below companionway steps at the deepest part of the bilge next to the end of the ballast

[BBill]

Try pumping a 10-30 gpm manual pump and it becomes very clear why it sounds better in print than in practice. I had the largest gusher and it was very exhausting after just a couple minutes. No way a person could pump at full capacity for hours.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by BBill

Try pumping a 10-30 gpm manual pump and it becomes very clear why it sounds better in print than in practice. I had the largest gusher and it was very exhausting after just a couple minutes. No way a person could pump at full capacity for hours.

Geez.

Was your hatch open to the waves?

Most of the water drains off our narrow good old boats in heavy weather and doesn't get down to the bilge.

Also if you can only pump for a couple minutes it might be time for you to start running or riding your bike again.

A 3 mile run/walk/jog once a week or a slow 25 mile bike ride should help a lot.

[Ike]

Originally Posted by Jebtrois

I was out on the water on Wednesday. It was gusts up to that but, no, it was not a sustained gale. It you look at the video you posted you can see that the ocean was not confused at all and those were hardly storm conditions. Again, mechanical failure can cause panic, but this was not that a boat was overtaken by a gale in the graveyard of the Atlantic. Sells papers and draws people to the news with a salacious headline, but really not a big story.
JEB

BTW. This is a USCG News Release: All the media coverage I have found are just copies of the USCG News Release. The USCG news releases are usually just a brief amplification of the SITREP (situation report) https://coastguardnews.com/coast-gua...led-sail-boat/

[Mickeyrouse]

Regarding bilge pumps: Electro-mechanical bilge pumps will sooner or later fail. Crapola in the bilge- sawdust, mud, small screws, etc. can get past the strainer and into the innards of any pump, rendering it useless. A secondary strainer can clog. Electrical connections, even “water tight” with heat shrink can find ways to corrode off. If a Jabsco type, then impeller issues. If a reciprocating diaphragm type, then piston issues. Float switches seem to last about eighteen months, then they fail. These are just a few ways, and I have encountered others. We have a stand-by 30 GPM that has been called into service more than once. I’m an old guy. Last spring on a passage a pump failed, revealing a dripping shaft seal. Had to pump the bilge hourly of about 10 gal. Annoying, but nothing more. Very glad I had the manual pump.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Mickeyrouse

Regarding bilge pumps: Electro-mechanical bilge pumps will sooner or later fail. Crapola in the bilge- sawdust, mud, small screws, etc. can get past the strainer and into the innards of any pump, rendering it useless. A secondary strainer can clog. Electrical connections, even “water tight” with heat shrink can find ways to corrode off. If a Jabsco type, then impeller issues. If a reciprocating diaphragm type, then piston issues. Float switches seem to last about eighteen months, then they fail. These are just a few ways, and I have encountered others. We have a stand-by 30 GPM that has been called into service more than once. I’m an old guy. Last spring on a passage a pump failed, revealing a dripping shaft seal. Had to pump the bilge hourly of about 10 gal. Annoying, but nothing more. Very glad I had the manual pump.

Still using the PO's float switch here.

Bought the boat 11 years ago.

Switch looks to be about 20 years old.

I did have to replace the bilge pump though.

He had a spare on the boat so I installed that.

Have never used the manual but PO had spare parts onboard so I'll test/rebuild before going more than 20 miles or so offshore

[BBill]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Geez.

Was your hatch open to the waves?

Most of the water drains off our narrow good old boats in heavy weather and doesn't get down to the bilge.

Also if you can only pump for a couple minutes it might be time for you to start running or riding your bike again.

A 3 mile run/walk/jog once a week or a slow 25 mile bike ride should help a lot.

Hahaha...you are assuming a lot. Other than occasional use in an old wood cutter I never used it for emergency...and am not advocating not to have a manual pump either. Grab the handle of the largest gusher and see how easy 30 gpm is to maintain for 10-15 mins pulling from a 5' deep sump...about 1/2 gal a stroke. Small gushers are way easier at half the gpm.

[Kinkircating]

Having just completed this passage 3 weeks ago with a 48’ catamaran in very similar conditions (strongest gusts were 37, with 8-10 footers) I can understand how there could be a pucker factor, but honestly the crew and I were enjoying a spirited sail, the only time I would have been nervous is if we would lose steering.

I do wonder if they had ever been out in similar conditions prior and if they had done weather routing in advance to understand that they’d be out there in these conditions. I’m sure the captain would have an interesting story to tell, always like learning from what went wrong & how to avoid these situations ourselves. Hatteras is no joke.

[Juggerknot]

Originally Posted by Sailor Sailor

Is that your boat in the video? Your past threads show you have a catamaran and were planning a voyage from Norfolk to the Keys.

BTW, you are misusing the word "salacious." Look it up.

Indeed, a sagacious observation on your part...