M/T Tropic Breeze Struck by Mega Yacht Utopia IV and Sinks Off the Coast of New Provi

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by LittleWing77

JtSailjt,



You're joining the discussion rather late.



Please read the whole thread and you'll understand what Don meant.



:

I simply asked a straightforward question and Don answered it straightforwardly as well, so reading the whole thread wasn’t necessary. Please choose which threads you read from start to finish, just as I will. If my question seemed bothersome to you, you could put me on “ignore” in less time than I could read the whole thread, and your post which had nothing to do with the subject of this thread could have been avoided as well, just sayin….

[danstanford]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I simply asked a straightforward question and Don answered it straightforwardly as well, so reading the whole thread wasn’t necessary. Please choose which threads you read from start to finish, just as I will. If my question seemed bothersome to you, you could put me on “ignore” in less time than I could read the whole thread, and your post which had nothing to do with the subject of this thread could have been avoided as well, just sayin….

Go easy Sail, Little Wing was just trying to keep things focused and I think you misinterpreted the tone.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by danstanford

Go easy Sail, Little Wing was just trying to keep things focused and I think you misinterpreted the tone.

Go easy yourself, Dan. The point is that all kinds of things are said or questions asked on this forum that I’ve known the answer to for 50 years, but I don’t take it upon myself to tell anyone else what questions they can ask, especially if it’s a very simple one, not directed at me, that can be answered in just a few words. It would be nice if every discussion was “focused” just the way I’d like it to be but that’s not reality for me or you or him or anyone else in a group discussion. In the same number of words it took him to tell me to read the whole thread he could have answered my very simple question just as the person I asked the question of did answer it, or he could have just ignored my question since I wasn’t asking him for the answer. I just don’t get the mentality of people who think it’s their business to advise other people what they can or cannot post as long as posts meet the requirements of the forum. Where does that come from?

[CSY Man]

In the same number of words it took him to tell me to read the whole thread he could

He is really a She, be nice to her.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by CSY Man

He is really a She, be nice to her.

I guess I don’t pay much attention to the gender of those who post here unless they use an obviously female sounding name, and even then it’s 50/50 whether I’d assume it was the name of their boat. After all, why does it matter? If they have something to contribute I’m interested in what they have to say, be they male or female, and if they want to stick their nose in and make snarky suggestions rather than allow someone who was asked a very simple question to answer it, I’m not too interested in that sort, be they male or female.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Hi jt, given what is presented in the news reports here, the captain turned over the helm of a boat doing 20 knots, with poor visibility, both inside and out, to someone who was not qualified. That is entirely on the captain in my book, though I am sure that person who was at the helm is panicked his life is over now.

:

I’d have to agree that the captain is most responsible but how qualified or trained do you really need to be to know enough to look where you’re going when you’re driving any vehicle, or even just walking down the street. So I think that whoever was at the helm does bear quite a lot of responsibility too.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I’d have to agree that the captain is most responsible but how qualified or trained do you really need to be to know enough to look where you’re going when you’re driving any vehicle, or even just walking down the street. So I think that whoever was at the helm does bear quite a lot of responsibility too.

So it sounded like the visibility from the bridge could have been so compromised by interior lighting and spray off the bow that the radar may have been the only reliable view ahead. If the person, who has been called a deck hand, did not really know how to read or operate the radar(s,) that could be a problem. But this is all just conjecture and a youtube video is not necessarily the best source of info. Nevertheless in court I believe the captain will be held entirely responsible, but I'll be interested to hear what happens.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I guess I don’t pay much attention to the gender of those who post here unless they use an obviously female sounding name, and even then it’s 50/50 whether I’d assume it was the name of their boat. After all, why does it matter? If they have something to contribute I’m interested in what they have to say, be they male or female, and if they want to stick their nose in and make snarky suggestions rather than allow someone who was asked a very simple question to answer it, I’m not too interested in that sort, be they male or female.

I don't care about Little Wing's gender either.

You however were disrespectful to the community by not reading the thread and expecting someone to fill you in. Lazy and entitled. Then you were rude to Little Wing who is a regular and rational contributor. You are in the wrong here. Poorly behaved and inconsiderate.

Please summarize all your contributions. Be specific. Include footnotes and links. Boil it all down to less than three paragraphs but don't leave anything out.

See? Lazy and entitled.

If you had bothered to even skim the thread and happened to have a modicum of leadership and management skill, the basis of Little Wing's comment would be clear. You don't put unqualified (vice certified - different discussion) people in positions in which they cannot perform; you don't set people up to fail and hope for the best.

[CSY Man]

After all, why does it matter?

I don't care about Little Wing's gender either.

The age of chivalry is over

As far as the topic of this thread: If indeed reality mirrors what was presented in the video, the Captain of the yacht screwed up to the tune of gross negligence: Unqualified watch keeper in charge on the bridge, high speed and bright bridge lights illuminated.
No idea what he was thinking.

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Auspicious

I don't care about Little Wing's gender either.



You however were disrespectful to the community by not reading the thread and expecting someone to fill you in. Lazy and entitled. Then you were rude to Little Wing who is a regular and rational contributor. You are in the wrong here. Poorly behaved and inconsiderate.



Please summarize all your contributions. Be specific. Include footnotes and links. Boil it all down to less than three paragraphs but don't leave anything out.



See? Lazy and entitled.



If you had bothered to even skim the thread and happened to have a modicum of leadership and management skill, the basis of Little Wing's comment would be clear. You don't put unqualified (vice certified - different discussion) people in positions in which they cannot perform; you don't set people up to fail and hope for the best.

Auspicious that’s ridiculous! People make comments all the time without reading the entire thread and It’s not disrespecting anyone to simply ask why a particular poster (not Little Wing, btw) said he thought the helmsman who rear ended a pretty big boat was entirely blameless. It’s an interesting ‘theory’ that the lights on inside or the spray from the now obscured his vision so badly that he couldn’t see ahead and you and some others may have in your mind that this ‘deck hand’ had never driven a boat before so had no understanding of the need to see ahead. But none of that is proven. So I asked “why” hoping that Don would expand on his statement that he thought the helmsman was completely blameless, which he did. No need to read the whole thread and certainly no need for a third party to tell me to read the whole thread before Im even allowed to ask a question of someone!

I guess we all will eventually learn exactly what happened but right now I think there’s a whole lot of assuming and speculating going on. As I mentioned earlier, just because he’s the captain, I do think the captain deserves most of the blame but I also think the helmsman is also at fault. I’ve never skippered a yacht like Utopia, but while I’ve seen boats like that where spray obscured the view around the bow looking downward from the cockpit, it doesn’t obscure the view several feet above the bow, which is where the nav lights of the tanker would have been, so would be visible from the Utopia if anyone was looking. I realize that I’m speculating about the geometry involved but so is everyone else at this point. I’ve seen many boats with lights on in the cockpit that reflect off the glass or plexiglass the helmsman is looking through but that in no way absolves the helmsman of responsibility if he hits something, especially a pretty big something with lights on directly ahead of him. .

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

I simply asked a straightforward question and Don answered it straightforwardly as well, so reading the whole thread wasn’t necessary. Please choose which threads you read from start to finish, just as I will. If my question seemed bothersome to you, you could put me on “ignore” in less time than I could read the whole thread, and your post which had nothing to do with the subject of this thread could have been avoided as well, just sayin….

Ever been engrossed in a conversation with some friends when someone who wasn't part of the conversation jumps in and instead of listening respectfully for a few minutes to get the gist of it, just interjects with something that you all already covered in depth? That's what one does when one can't be bothered to spend what, 5 minutes of one's oh so precious time reading a thread before interjecting themselves in something that was obviously covered already. One is basically saying their time is worth more than everyone else's, so everyone should happily tolerate their disruption, in fact requiring that hundreds of respectfully readers of the thread should have to take the time to read through the disruptive post and block the offending person, all so that person can choose what threads they read before interjecting. It's unquestionably considered rude by the vast majority of one's fellow humans, in fact I dare say all but the tiny minority who engage in this type or rude behavior. But even worse is the level of self absorption and lack of self awareness required to have the gall to accuse others of rudeness when they point this rude behavior out.

[Don C L]

Whoa.
I did not take jt's question as evidence of disrespect or cause for derision. I also did not take offense from it as evidence he had not read the whole thread. The question of who will be held responsible for this collision is perfectly valid and has not been determined in this thread, so he didn't miss that.

It is easy in these written texts to misunderstand one's meaning and intent. There is no intonation or facial expressions available to help make the communication clearer. So, for myself, I tend to assume the best of a poster at first, until they prove otherwise. This form of conversation requires we cut each other a bit of slack at first, if we get an impression of disrespect, IMO.

This is not to say that everyone who posts here has benign intent. Being one of the moderators, I've occasionally seen a bit of malice.
(emojis can help with intent too.)

[donradcliffe]

There is no question at all of who will be found liable. They don't need no stinking investigation.

Would this accident have sunk our local boat if the rich foreigner's boat hadn't been here??

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Ever been engrossed in a conversation with some friends when someone who wasn't part of the conversation jumps in and instead of listening respectfully for a few minutes to get the gist of it, just interjects with something that you all already covered in depth? That's what one does when one can't be bothered to spend what, 5 minutes of one's oh so precious time reading a thread before interjecting themselves in something that was obviously covered already. One is basically saying their time is worth more than everyone else's, so everyone should happily tolerate their disruption, in fact requiring that hundreds of respectfully readers of the thread should have to take the time to read through the disruptive post and block the offending person, all so that person can choose what threads they read before interjecting. It's unquestionably considered rude by the vast majority of one's fellow humans, in fact I dare say all but the tiny minority who engage in this type or rude behavior. But even worse is the level of self absorption and lack of self awareness required to have the gall to accuse others of rudeness when they point this rude behavior out.

You should try to always keep in mind that these forums aren't like a conversation amongst a circle of friends and instead are open to everyone
and because of that we all benefit from great diversity of perspectives. I realize there a certain number of folks who are very regular posters and become familiar with each other sometimes start to think it's just a cozy little circle of friends having a discussion like you mentioned, but that's not how it is or should be in an open forum.

I realize that a lot of you seem to think you know enough facts about this incident so you're sure that the helmsman was blameless and that I should have just accepted that concensus without question. BUT, as I've explained already, while I agree that the Captain bears ultimate responsibility, I tend to think the helmsman also was at least partially to blame. So, I chose a particular poster who had most recently stated the helmsman blameless theory (that you seem to think has been established as fact by the consensus on this forum, LOL) who happened to be a poster who I've found usually seems to be able to explain himself pretty well and asked THAT POSTER to explain why he felt the way that he did, and he did that. It was actually very straightforward and I didn't disrespect or disrupt anyone by asking Don that question and I think your statement that "the vast majority of humans" would find me asking that question as I did to be particularly disruptive or offensive or deserving of the things you've said about it. I just objected to a third party who had no need to interject herself into my exchange with Don telling me that I needed to read the whole thread. That seems pretty unnecessary and rude to me, and so does your post for that matter. You may not think all my posts are pertinent and I might not think all of yours are, but there's no need to tell each other whenever we think one of our posts aren't as informed or as on topic as we wish they were. That's especially true when posts like that are infrequent aren't hijacking the thread in an entirely different direction.

Maybe one day we'll learn how the blame for this incident is actually apportioned, or maybe a lawyer who frequently deals with accidents like this will fill us all in on whether the helmsman was actually "entirely" without blame, but for now I think it's at least a reasonable question to discuss, despite that many of you seem to have already made up your minds to the contrary and so strenuously object to me even asking a question as to WHY one particular poster felt the way he did about it.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Hi jt, given what is presented in the news reports here, the captain turned over the helm of a boat doing 20 knots, with poor visibility, both inside and out, to someone who was not qualified. That is entirely on the captain in my book, though I am sure that person who was at the helm is panicked his life is over now.

And LW, having been nearly run over by a yacht doing 20 knots, in broad daylight, 2 miles from a harbor entrance, with NO ONE visible at the helm, my suggestion was only half in jest.

I see despite being lambasted ( not by you) and that all these superyschties are highly trained competent msriners , yeah right .