Marina access in Hurricane

[Quadrille in JB]

Originally Posted by DefinitelyMe

As far as liability goes, here the marinas are not held liable, and certainly would not be under the circumstances you describe. However, there is precedent for lawsuits being filed against a boatyard which said it would haul boats and then, due to mismanagement, failed to do so. The owners, who had thought their boats 'safe' were then forced to find an alternative solution at short-notice. Some could not, their boats sank and they filed suit against the yard on the grounds that they had a verbal contract with them and that the yard had broken that contract.

I had the same problem before hurricane Dorian. The boatyard that had handled hauling my boats for more than 14 years (the owner) decided on the eve of my scheduled hauling that she was only going to haul the boats at her docks. I repeatedly verify throughout the year with her and her son that runs the travel lift that there will be no problem pulling my boat before a storm. Their response was "don't worry, we'll take care of you." I stopped by the afternoon before I was scheduled to be hauled and they said they would haul my boat the next morning, but when I appeared I was told "NO" in no uncertain terms. It was too late to have it hauled at any other local yard as they were all booked up.
Needless to say I was very upset. I have untold hours and a lot of $$ invested in this beautiful boat. Fortunately the storm turned out to sea. If it had hit us I would have undoubtedly lost my boat.
Over the years I have spent well over $40K with these people and they will never see my face or another $ of mine again.
We have moved the boat to a yard well inland for the hurricane season.

[Montanan]

As to the legal issues, that would be very much jurisdictional and fact dependent.

But for comparison, here is the relevant law of the State of Florida regarding Marina Evacuations

The 2019 Florida Statutes

Title XXIV
VESSELS
Chapter 327
VESSEL SAFETY
View Entire Chapter
327.59 Marina evacuations.—
(1) After June 1, 1994, marinas may not adopt, maintain, or enforce policies pertaining to evacuation of vessels which require vessels to be removed from marinas following the issuance of a hurricane watch or warning, in order to ensure that protecting the lives and safety of vessel owners is placed before interests of protecting property.
(2) Nothing in this section may be construed to restrict the ability of an owner of a vessel or the owner’s authorized representative to remove a vessel voluntarily from a marina at any time or to restrict a marina owner from dictating the kind of cleats, ropes, fenders, and other measures that must be used on vessels as a condition of use of a marina. After a tropical storm or hurricane watch has been issued, a marina owner or operator, or an employee or agent of such owner or operator, may take reasonable actions to further secure any vessel within the marina to minimize damage to a vessel and to protect marina property, private property, and the environment and may charge a reasonable fee for such services.
(3) Notwithstanding any other provisions of this section, in order to minimize damage to a vessel and to protect marina property, private property, and the environment, a marina owner may provide by contract that in the event a vessel owner fails to promptly remove a vessel from a marina after a tropical storm or hurricane watch has been issued, the marina owner, operator, employee, or agent may remove the vessel, if reasonable, from its slip or take whatever reasonable actions are deemed necessary to properly secure a vessel to minimize damage to a vessel and to protect marina property, private property, and the environment and may charge the vessel owner a reasonable fee for any such services rendered. In order to add such a provision to a contract, the marina owner must provide notice to the vessel owner in any such contract in a font size of at least 10 points and in substantially the following form:
NOTICE TO VESSEL OWNER

The undersigned hereby informs you that in the event you fail to remove your vessel from the marina promptly (timeframe to be determined between the marina owner or operator and the vessel owner) after the issuance of a tropical storm or hurricane watch for (insert geographic area), Florida, under Florida law, the undersigned or his or her employees or agents are authorized to remove your vessel, if reasonable, from its slip or take any and all other reasonable actions deemed appropriate by the undersigned or his or her employees or agents in order to better secure your vessel and to protect marina property, private property, and the environment. You are further notified that you may be charged a reasonable fee for any such action.

(4) A marina owner, operator, employee, or agent shall not be held liable for any damage incurred to a vessel from storms or hurricanes and is held harmless as a result of such actions. Nothing in this section may be construed to provide immunity to a marina operator, employee, or agent for any damage caused by intentional acts or negligence when removing or securing a vessel as permitted under this section.
History.—s. 22, ch. 93-211; s. 11, ch. 95-146; s. 464, ch. 95-148; s. 2, ch. 95-150; s. 2, ch. 2006-309.

[Sojourner]

All other arguments aside, the whole attitude definitely seems like an american one borne of some entitlement. A marina is not the coast guard. I can't see why any marina in the world has any obligation to help anyone. It's a private parking lot vs highway patrol. If they do have obligations, it's to their long timers. That's fair. Last but not least, I've never been through a named storm thankfully, but if one is coming at me, a marina is the last place I'd want to be... I've seen enough rings and dock lines pop from simple ferry wash to want that kinda BS in my life during a cane

[Group9]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

You obviously don't get it.


I was really refreshed to see the Mexican way about "Don't hit your head on the air conditioner/fall in the hole in the street" etc. when we cruised there. The USA used to be like that when I was a kid, but now it's been taken over by "How can I sue the crap out of someone when I get a boo boo from my own / lack of forward thinking / stupidity?"


Sorry if I'm not being sensitive to your (now nonexistent ) plight.

When you travel out of the US, you quickly realize what lawyers, and the abandonment of personal responsibility for anything, has made the US into' the ultimate nanny state.

We visited Masada in Israel a few years ago, and the only thing to keep you from falling off a 400 foot cliff, was a one pipe railing set horizontally about three and a half feet off the ground. We all talked about what would have been there instead in the US, to protect people from themselves, and to stop lawsuits from people so stupid, they might walk to the edge of the cliff and fall off.

[cpisz]

I completely agree with the sentiments of the forum. The OP had the answer but just doesn't like it. NO the marina has no legal or moral responsibility to let you in. The vessel was not sinking or in imminent danger. The marina was NOT safer then anchoring out and getting off the boat. The responsibility for the safety of the vessel is 100 percent that of the captain (ie YOU).

What really bothers me is the "I am going to sue you" attitude of my fellow Americans. Do you really think that the world is a better place to live in because of this attitude?

[zeehag]

lorenas track was difficult at best to plot. i see a lot of you slamming the op for waiting until last miunute.. guess what, folks...... it was ALL last minuet... that storm was dronk. it went where it was not supposed to go and didnt go where it was spozed to go . so. how does one prep for that while in soc??? hahahahaha now you know why i donot go there.
as for op--please use facebooks group sea of cortez sailors. they were given blow by blow details of the impending doom. baja was most fortunate that this lil tormenta went the way it did, as many were saved by her track.
lorena hung around pre invest forever. couldnot find any hint of her potential movement until she was formed and on h er way.
however those who used ssb and sea of cortez sailors group were aware of its impending doom and got safe. the usuals broke loose in la paz, i was advised and the rest were ok.
most marinas in mexico grant safe harbor to boats in distress and in the way of canes. yes you get to pay renta, but the availability is there. even shrimpers use marinas for canes.
some marinas are built better than others. that is a given. there is no law stating thou shalt or thou shalt not use marina for dangerous storms. one MUST carry liability insurance to use a marina in mexico. must be mexican based company.
ok that is easy.
now...next storm, track the beast on soc sailors in fb., and hunker down before the damned thing gets to corrientes. after corrientes you are next unless we are... we being in mazatlan marinas.
and yes i have witnessed folks being turned away before named events due to them not carrying insurance. i have not seen anyone who is insured being turned away from a marina in the face of a named event.
a friend was anchored in loreto. he was nervous as the storm chose him for a bullseye for a time. we were in constant contact until the storm veering off to guaymas occurred and saved his skin.
folks in santa rolalia were fine, unscathed. there are alternatives to la paz marinas which can be used iff you have enough time to flee.
lorena didnot offer that option.

ps we now have more time for you to practice as storms are growing down south and some have intention of visiting... be ready.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Seamentress

By refusing access to several vessels in distress and in fear of damage and loss of life, Does a Marina or safe haven have the right to put the lives of the people at risk in jeopardy, especially when they have the ability to offer safety.?

This is a "do you still beat your wife question." YOU put yourself, your crew, and your boat at risk. We've already pointed out that a marina is not necessarily safe and that moving into close quarters in heavy weather is inherently unsafe.

Originally Posted by Seamentress

Is there no moral, humanitarian or legal obligation to help?

No.

Originally Posted by Seamentress

Is it more difficult to complete an insurance claim for dock damage than attend the funeral of someone who drowned as a result of such a denial?

Are you still beating your wife?

Originally Posted by Seamentress

Regardless of the circumstances leading up to the event, wouldn't any of you guys offer help to a boater in need of help?

In general? As best I can. The specifics matter. Frankly with your attitude I'd fish you out of the water but I sure would not risk anything of substance or anyone to do it. You appear to be looking for someone to blame for your poor decision-making. Would you sue me for the bruise on your arm when I saved your life?

[Group9]

Originally Posted by zeehag

lorenas track was difficult at best to plot. i see a lot of you slamming the op for waiting until last miunute.. guess what, folks...... it was ALL last minuet... that storm was dronk. it went where it was not supposed to go and didnt go where it was spozed to go . so. how does one prep for that while in soc???.

I actually have an answer for that one. After having seen so many storms do exactly what you describe, our policy is this:

Whenever a named storm hits the Gulf of Mexico (we live on the Mississippi gulf coast) or any place where it could hit us in five days (no matter what the NHC cone shows), we assume it is going to hit us and prepare accordingly.

That may seem like a lot of trouble to a lot of people, but I promise you our insurance rates would be a lot cheaper if everyone planned like that.

We like our boat, and would rather keep it than get the insurance check.

[zeehag]

why do folks insist on comparing soc with gom. totally different cane situations.
totally different water motion and air motion.
warning was made available to those who had any interest in such information.
the information is always available when these are forming with our sailing waters in their viewfinders-is merely a matter of finding such info, for which google is a decent index.
tropical tidbits will grant your information wish, as will other sites. for our area, eeb mike is a good start, and nhc. ditto ssb nets available to sailors
this is cane season.
no one has a reason or an excuse to fail to collect the data from some source during this season, yet so many seem to be unable to do this.
during cane season who doesnot check nhc for what is brewing in our waters daily.
high cane season, aka NOW, --check 2 times daily. stuff changes. tracks change. these are slow developing events.
if you are doubtful of what when where and all that, check with locals. they know.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by Seamentress

......The Port Captain has closed the Port, which means vessels can enter but not leave, and movement within the port is only allowed for sefety reasons.

Anyone have any input on that?

Hi Seamentress.
I think this may be where your confusion lies.....
From experience it is more likely that when Port Captains decide an approaching major storm will threaten thier Ports, they will order all transient veseles to depart the dock for Anchorage or to Sea.

"Closed " means they prohibit any movement within the port after a certain time so that veseles deciding to leave at the very last minute, do not damage the Port infrastructure.

It is a management thing where the Port or Marina manager's first responsibility is to protect that investment and income resource for the other 364 days of the year.

Transient boat owners safety is not their responsibility, either legally or morally.


Living in the Philippines with on average 25 Typhoons a year, Typhoon Shelters are your best anchorage options, but the very best is to shift down to Borneo , 'beneath the wind'

[zeehag]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Hi Seamentress.
I think this may be where your confusion lies.....
From experience it is more likely that when Port Captains decide an approaching major storm will threaten thier Ports, they will order all transient veseles to depart the dock for Anchorage or to Sea.

"Closed " means they prohibit any movement within the port after a certain time so that veseles deciding to leave at the very last minute, do not damage the Port infrastructure.

It is a management thing where the Port or Marina manager's first responsibility is to protect that investment and income resource for the other 364 days of the year.

Transient boat owners safety is not their responsibility, either legally or morally.


Living in the Philippines with on average 25 Typhoons a year, Typhoon Shelters are your best anchorage options, but the very best is to shift down to Borneo , 'beneath the wind'

mexican ports are closed by port captain when weather precludes safe entry or exit by the travelling watercraft. for some insane reason port cpts in mexico actually have the boats and people in mind. they monitor channel 16 and actually answer when called, for the most part.
mazatlan is closed when entry has surf or when old harbor is fogged in or other issues port capt can see.
it is difficult to damage rocks. we have those. lots of em.
for named storms ports are closed due to safety issues involving the watercraft. ships still come and go unless closed as manzanillo did for patricia, with advisement all vessels head south .
mexico sees formation of 19-21 cyclonic events/nonevents annually. there are 2 and only 2 true hurricane holes in mexico , one barra de navidad other ixtapa. the rest is "pays ye money takes ye chances." all the whoever proclaimed the others which are not cane holes will learn once a cat 5 storm runs up center of soc there are no cane holes in soc.
mazatlan closes port 2 days before a cyclonic event as surf is UP well in advance of them. in soc, the reasoning is probably different, unless that surf comes up the sea.
by the way we have some activity in pacific ocean , epac basin, that is ours... to be watched. may be a great idea to prep now to avoid the june rush.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Group9

I actually have an answer for that one. After having seen so many storms do exactly what you describe, our policy is this:

Whenever a named storm hits the Gulf of Mexico (we live on the Mississippi gulf coast) or any place where it could hit us in five days (no matter what the NHC cone shows), we assume it is going to hit us and prepare accordingly.

Originally Posted by zeehag

why do folks insist on comparing soc with gom. totally different cane situations.
totally different water motion and air motion.

I didn't interpret that as a comparison between Sea of Cortez and Gulf of Mexico. Rather I took it as an example statement of policy, location-customized versions thereof applicable to any location.

-Chris

[zeehag]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

I didn't interpret that as a comparison between Sea of Cortez and Gulf of Mexico. Rather I took it as an example statement of policy, location-customized versions thereof applicable to any location.

-Chris

yes gotcha.. i wish the folks in soc would see these in advance and prep accordingly. they wait and think it is not going to affect em.
i make sure i give as much warning as i see coming.. itis hard to watch folks fail to prep when they know a cane is coming. when there is a cat 5 at cabo corrientes, that means a cat 5 for cabo san lucas, folks. it aint gonna weaken in that lil nook between corrientes and san lucas.
prepping for cat 5 when a ts is coming is only responsible and intelligent. too many fail to do just that
storms do intensify. and their tracks change. all cyclonic events have taught us that.

[NYSail]

My marina here on Long Island NY requires all large boats tied to the outside docks to leave before a named storm. I myself have an 800 lb mooring I go to in any predicted blow.... named or not. I tie up good and make sure the insurance premiums are paid....... would never stay in my slip.

Greg

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by zeehag

yes gotcha.. i wish the folks in soc would see these in advance and prep accordingly. they wait and think it is not going to affect em.
i make sure i give as much warning as i see coming.. itis hard to watch folks fail to prep when they know a cane is coming. when there is a cat 5 at cabo corrientes, that means a cat 5 for cabo san lucas, folks. it aint gonna weaken in that lil nook between corrientes and san lucas.
prepping for cat 5 when a ts is coming is only responsible and intelligent. too many fail to do just that
storms do intensify. and their tracks change. all cyclonic events have taught us that.

Let's be realistic Zeehag, from Cabo Corrientes the storms seem to speed up. You get 1 or 2 days after it passes the latitude of Corrientes before it is up to Cabo San Lucas; not much time. And in that time its path is often uncertain, as Lorena showed, and it can intensify.

People in the Mogote are gambling. They'd like not to have to go in; it costs money. So they watch the path and the projections, and wait until the last minute.

That is a fool's game, in my opinion. If the storm deviates, as many do, they can get hit, and the shelter of a marina is not guaranteed, as we see.

A better set of choices is:

When the storm is coming up the Mexican coast, long before Corrientes, make your move. Get into a marina and pay for a week. Better yet, beat feet to Escondito and get on a mooring. Even better, don't hang out in the Mogote during Hurricane season.

Or anchor your boat as well as you can and GET OFF.

Enduring the risk of La Paz will cost you somehow, money or damage.

Me, I stay in a safe place.