Marina access in Hurricane

[sdowney717]

Originally Posted by Quadrille in JB

I had the same problem before hurricane Dorian. The boatyard that had handled hauling my boats for more than 14 years (the owner) decided on the eve of my scheduled hauling that she was only going to haul the boats at her docks. I repeatedly verify throughout the year with her and her son that runs the travel lift that there will be no problem pulling my boat before a storm. Their response was "don't worry, we'll take care of you." I stopped by the afternoon before I was scheduled to be hauled and they said they would haul my boat the next morning, but when I appeared I was told "NO" in no uncertain terms. It was too late to have it hauled at any other local yard as they were all booked up.
Needless to say I was very upset. I have untold hours and a lot of $$ invested in this beautiful boat. Fortunately the storm turned out to sea. If it had hit us I would have undoubtedly lost my boat.
Over the years I have spent well over $40K with these people and they will never see my face or another $ of mine again.
We have moved the boat to a yard well inland for the hurricane season.

Yes, that is a bad experience for you, but the marina management wont miss you. They probably did not have the space or manpower to haul everyone who wanted out.

[Pelagic]

Thanks for the updates Zee, hope all is well

[Group9]

Originally Posted by zeehag

why do folks insist on comparing soc with gom. totally different cane situations.
totally different water motion and air motion.
warning was made available to those who had any interest in such information.
the information is always available when these are forming with our sailing waters in their viewfinders-is merely a matter of finding such info, for which google is a decent index.
tropical tidbits will grant your information wish, as will other sites. for our area, eeb mike is a good start, and nhc. ditto ssb nets available to sailors
this is cane season.
no one has a reason or an excuse to fail to collect the data from some source during this season, yet so many seem to be unable to do this.
during cane season who doesnot check nhc for what is brewing in our waters daily.
high cane season, aka NOW, --check 2 times daily. stuff changes. tracks change. these are slow developing events.
if you are doubtful of what when where and all that, check with locals. they know.

Well, you have a good point there. I have never hurricaned on the west coast, so I should have qualified my comments as only applying to the east coast and gom. I have no idea what the smart play is on that side.

[S/V Adeline]

I would never presume that a cruising vessel has a 'right' to a padded slip, easy access to the bar and hot showers in any marina, regardless of weather, but posts claiming port authorities ordering boats into weather are somewhat troubling.
I am not arguing safety at sea vs in a port, or anything on that line, but aren't there international treaties between most countries that provide 'safe harbor' in the event of life threatening storms?

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by S/V Adeline

I would never presume that a cruising vessel has a 'right' to a padded slip, easy access to the bar and hot showers in any marina, regardless of weather, but posts claiming port authorities ordering boats into weather are somewhat troubling.
I am not arguing safety at sea vs in a port, or anything on that line, but aren't there international treaties between most countries that provide 'safe harbor' in the event of life threatening storms?

Port Captains don't order ships to sea.....they just order them to vacate the docks ahead of time if those docks may be exposed to severe stresses in a serious storm.

The ships can opt to try and anchor somewhere or put to sea well ahead of time to avoid the storm .

Main reason is that a large ship sunk at a commercial dock is not good for the port income if it takes months to remove

Less clear with small craft/yachts as their potential to damage port infrastructure is minimal and there is obviously the concern of the recreational crew's ability to survive at sea.

I think many marinas avoid making decisions until too late to preserve their year round income .

It is a subject often discussed at the ICOMIA Marina Conferences, I attend.

Whenever a 100 year storm wipes out a marina infrastructure, Both designers and Investors go back to the drawing board as well as rethinking the business plan which is trending more towards dry storage and upland income

[boat driver]

Originally Posted by Seamentress

Choulia.
Maybe you should read my thread again.
You have not added any constructive input to the thread and your comments are misleading and unhelpful.
Firstly I clearly state that the path of the storm was particularly difficult to predict, it was not until 3pm on the day of the storm that it became clear we were in fact in danger, until that time the predicted path of the storm put it well out into the Pacific, and NOAA's wind probability model showed less than a 1% chance of storm force winds for La Paz ,THAT MORNING!!
After the 3pm update several concerned boat owners were denied entry, many others were not concerned enough to attempt moving, or maybe they already knew they would be turned away.
I have been here for several years and do not "leave it until the last minute" as you put it to go into a marina for cover, Hurricane Newton came through in 2016 and we had plenty of time to take cover which we did, and stayed safe.
Why you jump to the defence of MLP is confusing the discussion, I again clearly and carefully stated that only 1 of the 5 marina's I contacted would offer shelter.
I specifically avoided naming any of the 5 marina's involved and I want it understood that the objective of the thread is not to be critical of the marina's or their policies.
Yes I am aware that MLP was severely damaged in a hurricane several years previously but this information is not relevant to my thread.
Therefore your reference to MLP specifically is likely to draw attention to the marina, that would be entirely wrong.
If anyone else wishes to contribute to this discussion please avoid names or specifics with regard to any of the marina's here!
My question was with regard to liability which may or may not come from the fact that we were told that the marina was full when at least 2 of the 5 clearly were not.
The objective of the thread is to open a discussion to a wide audience of experienced people, in an effort to establish a diversified opinion on the subject.

Here is potentially a further complicating factor:- If a boat owner or captain had feared for the safety of his vessel during the storm and entered a marina, he ignores instructions from security personnel that he cannot be there, and ties up ensuring safety for his vessel and occupants.
The Port Captain has closed the Port, which means vessels can enter but not leave, and movement within the port is only allowed for sefety reasons. To ignore this local law can lead to severe punishment and a steep fine, I believe currently the equivalent of $15,000 USD. WOULD A MARINA BE WITHIN ITS RIGHTS TO EVICT THE VESSEL?
Anyone have any input on that?

If the authorities can send Vessels to sea, why cant a private marina?
When a cyclone approaches the us coast, the USCG begins a schedule of broadcast and planning notices. When they determine a port is closed, no vessel may move, and with particular emphasis on including recreational vessels. No inbound or outbound without permission. Besides violation investigations!the USCG locks down rescue services till storm passing, often relocating them from the storm path.
Therefore, deduct that a marina has no obligation to assist you and reserves the right to kick you out or surcharge for the responsibility to care for your vessel. This surcharge in broad strokes includes haul out to store boat ashore , at their discretion, and/or damages your vessel does to the facility.
Boat Owners tend to not recognize that recreational vessels are not a necessity, therefore, for pleasure, and no one is under obligation to support a toy at their expense.

[zeehag]

storms donot speed up at corrientes they do intensify rapidly there. in the 10 yrs i have followed the formation of these storms first hand i have seen this in more than 60 storms created and forming on pacific coast mexico. they seem faster to you as they are coming at you. sorry . they donot SPEED UP but they do rapidly intensify.
aannndd we have another lorena type challenge, a sneaker coming up coast..is a red notification but no tracking and no invest, same as lorena. seems these are not being identified as soon as they used to be. makes warning folks in the track more difficult. just be ready. intensity predictions for one of the two(INVEST 93E) is cat 2. prep for 5. all of soc. some models of the invest 93e show straight up center of soc. some show spine of baja. either way there is going to be a bunch of difficulty . please be ready to get busy. there is no label as invest as yet for the more dangerous looking one as it curls around corrientes

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by zeehag

storms do not speed up at corrientes

Zeehag, I'm sure you have good sources but I watched Lorena between the latitude of Acapulco and the latitude of Cabo Corrientes for four days, then it reached Cabo San Lucas in what seems like 24 hours later.

Same with this next one perhaps coming next week; on Sunday at 12:00 it is off (SW) of Acapulco. 24 hours later, at 12:00 Monday, it is still has not reached to the latitude of Cabo Corrientes. But 21 hours after that, at 9:00 Tuesday, it reaches Cabo San Lucas.

That last movement seems really quick to me.

My point is that once a hurricane passes Cabo Corrientes boats in southern Sea of Cortez or Cabo San Lucas don't have much time.

[zeehag]

lorena was moving fast from its first glimpse. a whole 10 miles per hour.
it didnot speed up at corrientes and it took longer than 24 hours to get to cabo san lucas from corrientes--we had it here in the nook by mazatlan for 24 hours. splainme this...lorena affected all of banderas bay, that nook in between san lucas and mazatlan, then came out looking like to be in pacific but went to lapaz instead. so. tell me it sped up again. it maintained its 10 mph speed but was dronken and could not sail a decent course.

[zeehag]

once a storm hits cabo corrientes it could and does do one of two things.. either rapidly intensify as most do , or skip the punta corrientes and skim over the land as lorena did. generally before lorena storms took 3 days to get out of corrientes . lorena didnot bother with the routine and chose different track.

the newest issue is that mexicoast is lying in monsoonal trough and it is difficult to see the issues before we get hurt. keep your eyes open and prep well. we are due another major before end of season. i hope not, but...... 'tis high cane season.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by zeehag

lorena was moving fast from its first glimpse. a whole 10 miles per hour.
it didnot speed up at corrientes and it took longer than 24 hours to get to cabo san lucas from corrientes--we had it here in the nook by mazatlan for 24 hours. splainme this...lorena affected all of banderas bay, that nook in between san lucas and mazatlan, then came out looking like to be in pacific but went to lapaz instead. so. tell me it sped up again. it maintained its 10 mph speed but was dronken and could not sail a decent course.

Ok, I'll accept your recap of Lorena, with one correction: It did not affect all of Banderas Bay. In fact it affected none of it. We got one squall 12 hours before it passed and some rain, which is typical this time of year. In fact last night was far worse, and no hurricane.

Let's watch the next one.

[zeehag]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Ok, I'll accept your recap of Lorena, with one correction: It did not affect all of Banderas Bay. In fact it affected none of it. We got one squall 12 hours before it passed and some rain, which is typical this time of year. In fact last night was far worse, and no hurricane.

Let's watch the next one.

thats funny yaya silvia formerly yaya cafe said bucerias was affected and posted her bent trees and such issues. so i am glad it didnot bother banderas bay.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by zeehag

thats funny yaya silvia formerly yaya cafe said bucerias was affected and posted her bent trees and such issues. so i am glad it didnot bother banderas bay.

Bucerias had the same 30 minute 40 MPH squall at 8:30PM, 12 hours before Lorena passed the mouth of Banderas Bay (Bucerias is only 1.5 miles from our marina in La Cruz).

We've had these squalls about three times a week all summer.

We also get a lot of rain, mostly over in the Puerto Vallarta area. Streets flood regularly, however last night we had over two inches in La Cruz.

Those are not hurricane related weather impacts either.

But believe who you wish.

(You know, I think it's funny that you'd choose to believe a land based FB poster than a sailor. I have no axe to grind, but I am observant, and one snap shot of bent palm trees doesn't convince me of anything, especially when I was there)

[Saskatchewan]

I’d say there is a lot of sound advice here. I’ll just add one short story told to me by my First and best sailing instructor a long time cruise captain in the Caribbean. Her name was Joyce Bursey. Joyce and her partner underestimated a hurricane in the 80s , I believe it was Marilyn, they were anchored at Charlotte Amalie, they and many others ended up well onshore inside their boats. Some dead some injured, some lucky. One fellow found himself face to face with a dozen or more looters wanting to strip his boat. He had a handgun and was in a standoff with the mob. He soon realised he could not stop them all and also asked himself if their poverty stricken lives were more important then his possessions. He wisely I think, turned and walked away and found safety with a Joyce and other folks in a badly damaged hotel upper floor. Joyce’s boat and many others were also robbed, they had to wait several days for help but were alive. Staying with your boat ,is it worth your life?

[KP44]

Originally Posted by Seamentress

Choulia.
Maybe you should read my thread again.
You have not added any constructive input to the thread and your comments are misleading and unhelpful.

Respectfully;
Perhaps we should re-read the local skipper's comments, which I find both informative and helpful.

It is not a marina's responsibility to provide a safe haven at the last minute when their attention goes to their residents. I think the marina personnel would do whatever they could for someone who is really in trouble.

We watched Lorena as it headed towards Cabo. Instead of heading west out into the Pacific, at the last minute Lorena headed north and up into the Sea of Cortez. Many of us were concerned about our boats and our friends' boats.

It was scary. But the precautions we all take as prudent seaman kept all vessels safe. There were gale force winds and no surge in la Paz.

It "could have" done otherwise - and the locals and marinas would have done what they could for anyone in trouble.