Marina access in Hurricane

[Seamentress]

Hi all.
We have just come through another Hurricane, a Cat1 storm this time, down here in La Paz BCS.
Hurricane Lorena turned out to be a difficult storm to track, the various models showed the storm at conflicting strengths going in varying directions, so, it was a difficult decision making time, right up to the 3pm (our time) NOAA update, which showed an eastward movement bringing the storm very close to us.
Up until this time it was forecast to brush the cape of the peninsular and go out into the Pacific, missing us by a couple of hundred miles.
Everyone here at anchor was well aware of the storm and were well prepared for the event, however after this last update when we became aware of a potential direct hit, several of us contacted marina's to go in for the duration of the storm.
We have several Marina's here, 5 are large and quite new, but only 1 responded positively to my call, all other marina's informed us they were full and had no room.
I entered one of the marina's the next morning and observed at least 5 slips that were empty, I am 90% sure that all of them were empty before the storm also.
They also had a 250ft outside edge dock that was empty, which usually has two 100ft + motor yachts moored there. There are 26- 2ft concrete pilings along its length, The marina operator believes the dock may become damaged if used during a storm is what I was told when I tried making an argument to use it in an emergency.
How they believe a 40/50 sailboat might damage a dock designed to home two 200plus tonne mega yachts is beyond me?
In the event the storm turned out to travel just to the east of us, with the inner edge of the eye very close, so although we had a close call the high intensity quadrant was concentrated in a more easterly direction, and we only experienced winds in the 40Kt range.
My question would be, (what if!!!) If the storm had turned out worse and there had been injury, loss of life and vessel damage. Would there be a case to be answered by the marina's in question,for denying access and putting life in jeopardy?
I am aware that all of us have the ability to leave the boat unattended during a storm, but please be aware that if a boat goes ashore here, it is seen as fair game by the local residents and WILL be stripped in a very short time, so being on board is the only way to try to save your home in a bad situation.
Bearing in mind 3 lives were lost here in 2014 during Hurricane O'dile.
I understand that many questions may arise from this post, but my rhetoric has gone long already, please ask away and I'll be happy to reply.

[JPA Cate]

Not a chance. It's a different country with a different legal structure. Napoleonic Law vs. the descendants of British Common Law. The attitude would be that the cyclone season is well known, and the skippers of the boats should have taken them elsewhere, it was the skipper's risk not that of the marina. Mexico expects you to look after yourself. You're expected to dodge the air conditioner at head height over the sidewalk, to not fall in the sink hole in the road, and so forth. They expect adults to be responsible, and to look after their own welfare. I don't think, but don't know for sure, if they even have the legal "attractive nuisance" concept, but their requirements are very different from the US's.


Many places we've visited require you to leave the marina if the cyclone comes. One used to sink its docks to keep them safe. Some places, if there are vacancies, you get tied astern to chains on the bottom, and have to pull most of the way out of the slip, to avoid damaging the docks. And of course, they won't let you in before you have insurance to cover any damage you do. It is a business looking after itself.

I think it is a matter of scale, don't know what your boat displaces, but our boat, it's 14 tonnes. That's a lot of mass and it would take a number of strikes before the boat began to break up.

At any rate, if you looked at the cyclone tracks for the last 50 yrs. or so, you would see that the Golfo de California (Sea of Cortez) has had a number of severe hits. It is something we became more viscerally aware of after Jim was alone on the boat while I was in the US, and a cyclone threatened. It is rare to research before being there, although CF member, Zeehag has certainly mentioned it a number of times.

Since we left Mexico, we have always gone completely out of the cyclone belt. Others, stay, and with varying levels of success. Many insurances will not cover you between set latitudes.

Ann

On Edit: If you look at the pictures of the hurricane damage done at Abacos a few weeks ago, look at the marinas. A big storm can do a lot of damage, strong winds hurl unimagineable things, storm surge lifts docks off pilings, helpless boats get blown and floated and dismasted. Imho, good stuff to avoid.

[chouliha]

Neal use to close the marina when there is a named storm. He would not take new boats into the marina at that time.

You realize that MLP was completely destroyed because the 2 marinas upwind of them broke apart and swept down and cleared MLP right out. Neal has spent millions putting piles in to make the marina safer.

Waiting till the last minute to decide you want to gain protection and then writing "How they believe a 40/50 sailboat might damage a dock designed to home two 200plus tonne mega yachts is beyond me?"

Years ago often during a named storm Neal would actually move boats out of his marina to Marina Costa Baja.

He is as concerned for the boats in his marina as he is for the marina itself.

May I suggest you not wait till the last minute and go into the marina earlier if you see something headed your way?

[Seamentress]

Choulia.
Maybe you should read my thread again.
You have not added any constructive input to the thread and your comments are misleading and unhelpful.
Firstly I clearly state that the path of the storm was particularly difficult to predict, it was not until 3pm on the day of the storm that it became clear we were in fact in danger, until that time the predicted path of the storm put it well out into the Pacific, and NOAA's wind probability model showed less than a 1% chance of storm force winds for La Paz ,THAT MORNING!!
After the 3pm update several concerned boat owners were denied entry, many others were not concerned enough to attempt moving, or maybe they already knew they would be turned away.
I have been here for several years and do not "leave it until the last minute" as you put it to go into a marina for cover, Hurricane Newton came through in 2016 and we had plenty of time to take cover which we did, and stayed safe.
Why you jump to the defence of MLP is confusing the discussion, I again clearly and carefully stated that only 1 of the 5 marina's I contacted would offer shelter.
I specifically avoided naming any of the 5 marina's involved and I want it understood that the objective of the thread is not to be critical of the marina's or their policies.
Yes I am aware that MLP was severely damaged in a hurricane several years previously but this information is not relevant to my thread.
Therefore your reference to MLP specifically is likely to draw attention to the marina, that would be entirely wrong.
If anyone else wishes to contribute to this discussion please avoid names or specifics with regard to any of the marina's here!
My question was with regard to liability which may or may not come from the fact that we were told that the marina was full when at least 2 of the 5 clearly were not.
The objective of the thread is to open a discussion to a wide audience of experienced people, in an effort to establish a diversified opinion on the subject.

Here is potentially a further complicating factor:- If a boat owner or captain had feared for the safety of his vessel during the storm and entered a marina, he ignores instructions from security personnel that he cannot be there, and ties up ensuring safety for his vessel and occupants.
The Port Captain has closed the Port, which means vessels can enter but not leave, and movement within the port is only allowed for sefety reasons. To ignore this local law can lead to severe punishment and a steep fine, I believe currently the equivalent of $15,000 USD. WOULD A MARINA BE WITHIN ITS RIGHTS TO EVICT THE VESSEL?
Anyone have any input on that?

[Seamentress]

Ann, Thanks for your input, your comments are very interesting, So, some marinas turn you out if a storm approaches, I haven't heard that before.
I understand your comments about the a/c units at head height in the streets, holes in the sidewalk etc, and Mexico expecting you to look after yourself, but what about Maritime Law, wouldn't this situation fall into that category?
I don't know, anyone else know?

[DefinitelyMe]

Our marinas here in Bermuda require all boats to leave if a hurricane threatens. Good thing too. We had a cat. 3 last week and had floating docks ripped free, flipped over and impaled on their pilings. There are always a few stragglers who don't leave. The staff tie them between the docks and do their best to protect them but they almost always suffer damage.

We don't usually get big storm surge and the marinas are all good, modern marinas with solid concrete breakwaters but still they don't fare well. Most boats go to a mooring. Some haul out. But the marinas are a big no-no.

[Auspicious]

Originally Posted by Seamentress

Here is potentially a further complicating factor:- If a boat owner or captain had feared for the safety of his vessel during the storm and entered a marina, he ignores instructions from security personnel that he cannot be there, and ties up ensuring safety for his vessel and occupants.

I take exception to your words that tying up in a marina ensures "safety for his vessel and occupants." In a major weather event you are putting your boat in a place with things that can poke holes in it. State of electricity is unknown so there are issues when flooded. The structural integrity of the docks, piles, cleats, other boats, and docklines of other boats are unknown.



In a small handful of named storms I left marinas to anchor out and reduce risk. I have my protocol for that.



In your scenario--your words--you wait for the weather to build before moving into a marina "in an emergency." What worse time could there be to move a boat, particularly in limited space? Have you not seen a fender explode? With noise and wind and rain have you considered the risk of personal injury to you and crew while trying to tie up in extreme conditions? If you were that concerned for personal safety why did you not dinghy ashore? Yes, yes, you mentioned your boat possibly being blown ashore and stripped. Is that more important than safety? Do you have so little confidence in your ground tackle? Why is your material risk more important than the material risk of the marina owner?



I am not a lawyer. I'm not familiar with Mexican law. As a human being with a lot of experience sailing a wide range of boats in a lot of conditions on a foundation of technical expertise I find the prospect of suing a marina because they had open slips and wouldn't let you in to be an unpleasant and entitled attitude. It's offensive. You had lots of options and lots of time. That the named storm was unpredictable is an excuse, and not a good one. Most of us start making preparations early if there is a chance of heavy weather. We are grateful when we dodge the bullet and thankful for the opportunity to practice our procedures. Think. Take responsibility instead of looking for someone else to blame.

[DefinitelyMe]

As far as liability goes, here the marinas are not held liable, and certainly would not be under the circumstances you describe. However, there is precedent for lawsuits being filed against a boatyard which said it would haul boats and then, due to mismanagement, failed to do so. The owners, who had thought their boats 'safe' were then forced to find an alternative solution at short-notice. Some could not, their boats sank and they filed suit against the yard on the grounds that they had a verbal contract with them and that the yard had broken that contract.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Seamentress

Choulia.
Maybe you should read my thread again.
You have not added any constructive input to the thread and your comments are misleading and unhelpful.

Oh? I thought his extremely polite suggestion not to leave it until the last moment quite appropriate.

You asked for advice and received it. If you don't like the advice that's fine and your prerogative to ignore it, but not to complain about it.

Pete

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by Seamentress

Choulia.
Maybe you should read my thread again.
You have not added any constructive input to the thread and your comments are misleading and unhelpful.

Here is potentially a further complicating factor:- If a boat owner or captain had feared for the safety of his vessel during the storm and entered a marina, he ignores instructions from security personnel that he cannot be there, and ties up ensuring safety for his vessel and occupants.
The Port Captain has closed the Port, which means vessels can enter but not leave, and movement within the port is only allowed for sefety reasons. To ignore this local law can lead to severe punishment and a steep fine, I believe currently the equivalent of $15,000 USD. WOULD A MARINA BE WITHIN ITS RIGHTS TO EVICT THE VESSEL?
Anyone have any input on that?

Unfortunately, you are 'killing the messenger' here.

-> You admit that hurricanes are difficult to predict and prone to change, then indicate that the marina should have let you in because the forecast indicated it might not hit. (Even though the trajectory changed and moved the storm closer).

-> Many, many marina's will not allow people to stay in their slip if a direct hit appears imminent. The dockmaster's primary obligation is to the docks and marina property. The dockmaster's secondary responsibility is to the property of the guests/patrons. The dockmaster is not responsible for you or your guests. The are not the Red Cross.

Had you tied your boat up to their property, you could be charged with trespassing. If your boat broke free and caused damage, you could be held liable for that as well.

Just because you don't like the truth or facts, doesn't make the messenger wrong. Choulia answered your question directly and factually.

[Group9]

Marinas are a boat killing ground in a bad hurricane. We don’t even leave ours there in a Cat 1. A few years ago, we had a tropical storm that sunk a lot of boats at our local marina, (that we kept our 42 sloop in) that stayed in it (we moved our boat) and damaged the marina so badly that we couldn’t bring our boat back into it for two months.

There had been a mandatory evacuation ordered, but half the boats didn’t leave.

Poor hurricane planning by a boat owner does not impose a duty on anyone else. I’ve been through about a dozen or more direct hits by hurricanes at this point in my life. I’ve never had a single one sneak up on me.

[chouliha]

Also forgot to mention with the marina my early post mentioned would often try and keep an empty space between boats to give their client more room to tie off and possibly not smash masts.

Refusing to rent you a space just before a named storm arrives may sound illegal to you but knowing the marina you are referring to maybe their staff was to busy securing and checking vessels lines than to deal with last minute boats who were anchored outside for weeks or months.

Why not ask the marina managers what their marina policy is when there is a named storm and it’s a day away.

Here is hoping you get thru the remainder of the hurricane season safely anchored in La Paz.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Seamentress

The Port Captain has closed the Port, which means vessels can enter but not leave, and movement within the port is only allowed for sefety reasons. To ignore this local law can lead to severe punishment and a steep fine, I believe currently the equivalent of $15,000 USD. WOULD A MARINA BE WITHIN ITS RIGHTS TO EVICT THE VESSEL?
Anyone have any input on that?

What does the marina contract say?

-Chris

[tarian]

Sorry to OP I really do not understand your post , I always find posters that say Im not saying this because , generally are peeed off at something, I read your post several times and still could not get my head around it , I assume your not a Mexican citizen , I assume you know Hurricane season, and one would assume that a life cannot be replaced a boat can , and if you cannot afford the loss of the boat get insurance, and if you cannot or do not want insurance , take the punches life throws out.
A marina is not a public toilet they have no obligation to take anyone in and information they give you , cannot be second guessed by yourself as you know nothing of their operational protocol.
I always find it strange that we expect everything to be as at home

[Shrew]

Originally Posted by tarian

S
I always find it strange that we expect everything to be as at home

I don't believe this has anything to do with how business is conducted in the US vs other countries. There are many US marina's that will turn boats away once they are inside the 'cone of uncertainty' on a named storm.

There are many, many marina's on the southern east coast of the US that will only take in boats with seasonal storm contracts. This means, you sign a contract an pay a fee for the season for the opportunity to use that marina as a harbor of refuge in a named storm. You still pay to get hauled and stored above and beyond the contract, which is really just a retainer. Anyone who doesn't have such contract at the beginning of the season gets turned away.

The marina can't be sure your boat, cleats, lines or crew are capable of adequately securing the boat in a manner than protects the marina property or the property of their other paying guests. The marina staff typically doesn't have time to do their due diligence as their too busy securing teh marina property and guest boats.

How much for 1-2 nights berth in that marina in La Paz? I doubt the revenue is worth the headache.

This does have to do with the general arrogance and unreasonable expectations which is stereotypical of my fellow Americans.