Sailboat Sinks After Hitting Cape May Jetty

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I had to have three certificates: government certificate for operating pleasure craft, a Marcom A for radio and a coastal navigation certificate which counts as a certificate of competence.

The operator certificate is the International one that all (EU?) sailors that venture out to sea must have afaik.

The ICC is mandatory in some European countries, Croatia comes to mind, but it is not an EU wide thing. Otherwise the radio license is mandatory and the 'Groot Pleziervaartbewijs' as per your screenshot is mandatory in NL for operators of pleasure craft in the 25 to 40m range. Not sure about the rest of the EU.

Having said that, good seamanship dictates to not head out to sea without any certification so I have the ICC (relatively easy to get in NL) and of course the radio operator cert. But to be clear, it does not mean I (or any holder of any permit) know absolutely everything, on the contrary, especially when certain areas of knowledge have not been reinforced by practical experience.

And this is also a main reason for being on this forum and participating from time to time, it's a great place to make mistakes and display a gap in one's knowledge. (And dare I say it, to be occasionally mocked by this perceived lack of knowledge.) Because one thing I have now firmly engrained in my mind is the triple R rule which applies in the Americas (as opposed to "match the lights when entering" which I stick to in my cruising grounds). So should I end up in your part of the world, the chances of making real mistakes as demonstrated by the skipper who is the subject of this thread, as opposed to in safety here on CF, have been reduced again, a bit.

I think this is an excellent result of this conversation. (Just as I now have a lightning warning app on my phone as a result of an excellent tip by Franziska some time ago which may just save my boat in the coming years.)

[s/v Jedi]

I am actually a supporter of doing away with all buoys, lighthouses etc. When one wants to set sail, better learn to use other navigation methods, either electronic or eyeball.

[Tempest245]

That Jetty is considered the West Jetty, what people are calling south. In either case, if you're coming from from the south and hugging that coastline around Cape May, IF you look at the chart and the aerials, It's possible to see the Red on your Right, and the Green to port as you approach from the SW.

The East or Northern most light (Red is further out on it's jetty than the Green. The Jetty that the Green Light sits on extends 50 to 100 yards past the light.

My theory is that they saw red right green left from their position and thought they were good.

I'm not sure how you do that if you're looking at a chartplotter. Either that, or they were tired and tried to cut the corner not realizing that the jetty extended that far past the light. Where they ended up, may not have been where they struck.

From news that I read, they had just purchased the boat 2 days before. 2 Canadian Sailors taking it home to Canada.

Very sad outcome for them. But they were lucky that the CG station is right there and they got them off the boat safely.

[hpeer]

2 Canadians could say a lot, depending upon where they were from.

The topography of the NJ coast is unlike anything in Maritime Canada. I know of no jetties at all.

So the concept of jetties and bars may be new and confusing.

Not that that is an excuse, but may contribute.

It does raise other questions.
Where did they start from?
Why not come down the canal?

One wonders what drove them to this Southerly approach, if that is indeed what occurred.

[Eagle ITA]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Very unlikely. I believe all European sailors are certified and were subjected to this IALA A/B difference again and again, incl. during exams.

Not so sure it's very unlikely;

you are right, most of the European sailors (not all) are certified, but most of them will be certificated a long (long) time ago; it's not uncommon to sail for years in the Med, then go crossing and forget there is a IALA A and a IALA B sistem.
More than a certificate, it could be better collect as much informations as possible when you start navigating in new areas; and that independently from IALA A/B, but also for any other infos that (if you don't know them) could cause issues.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by hpeer

One wonders what drove them to this Southerly approach, if that is indeed what occurred.

Ignorance. I start at the outward red/white water marker for at least 3 arrivals in an unknown port and even in Canaveral after years don’t take the shortcuts that others do.

I see the same thing in the Abacos as boats pass Whale Cay very close, with big ocean swells slamming it and it being a lee shore with 15-20kts wind. What are they thinking? If their engine gives a hiccup, it’s the end.

[Eagle ITA]

Originally Posted by Tempest245

................

My theory is that they saw red right green left from their position and thought they were good.
....................

The light in the entrance (every entrance) they are always positioned to avoid this. It is not possible

Originally Posted by hpeer

Jim Cate

Aquamaps screen shot.

There is not any positions in which you can do that

[sailorboy1]

I will take moment from the keel hauling and .....

be worry for the boat loss.


people rarely cause boat damage making mistakes on a boat forum

[Eagle ITA]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Ignorance. I start at the outward red/white water marker for at least 3 arrivals in an unknown port and even in Canaveral after years don’t take the shortcuts that others do.

I see the same thing in the Abacos as boats pass Whale Cay very close, with big ocean swells slamming it and it being a lee shore with 15-20kts wind. What are they thinking? If their engine gives a hiccup, it’s the end.

^^^+1

...just to gain few minutes on arrival

I've seen people take these stupid risks over and over again myself

[Eagle ITA]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

people rarely cause boat damage making mistakes on a boat forum

But every now and then you can read unscrupulous advice that if followed.....

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by HeinSdL

Having said that, good seamanship dictates to not head out to sea without any certification so I have the ICC (relatively easy to get in NL)

I have the ICC, I got it several years ago to leave options for chartering in the Med open. I must say that it is colossally expensive and of very little value. They can literally take you from zero to ICC in 2 weeks on a boat. Other than that one certificate, I have none. And don't see any value in that or any other to be carried with me on a boat.

And to be honest, I don't currently have an ICC. Here in the US, it is issued by a private organization called ASA. The certificate comes with an expiration date. To renew it, all you have to do is renew your membership in the organization and pay a renewal fee. No background checks, no performance checks, no credential checks, no experience checks, -- just a bank check. Obviously, I haven't renewed it, but if I ever intend to charter in the mediterranean, I will write that bank check. What a meaningless crock!

[skipperpete]

I got a CEVNI for traveling on the French canals and it was well worth doing the exam, the rules and signage for navigating the inland waterways are quite unique and a lack of knowledge could have major consequences on narrow waterways with 100 metre barges being frequent to encounter.

[Kd9truck]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

I have the ICC, I got it several years ago to leave options for chartering in the Med open. I must say that it is colossally expensive and of very little value. They can literally take you from zero to ICC in 2 weeks on a boat. Other than that one certificate, I have none. And don't see any value in that or any other to be carried with me on a boat.

And to be honest, I don't currently have an ICC. Here in the US, it is issued by a private organization called ASA. The certificate comes with an expiration date. To renew it, all you have to do is renew your membership in the organization and pay a renewal fee. No background checks, no performance checks, no credential checks, no experience checks, -- just a bank check. Obviously, I haven't renewed it, but if I ever intend to charter in the mediterranean, I will write that bank check. What a meaningless crock!

I agree about the certifications, I have a bunch of “coasties“ (us coast guard) friends and FDNY marine division friends as well. Every one to the letter says in a boat to boat mishap occurrence, the holder of the higher certification is held to a higher standard. Unless you are working full time on some one else’s boat for an occupation it is a tool of liability. As in If you have a “6-pak” the lowest certification in USA standards and some one is hurt of you vessel you are more open to being libel for the injury because you knowingly did not provide a safe experience.
I am not saying the knowledge is worthless, I learned over the course of a life time of experiences, adults engaging for the first time should definitely take classes. “Safety at sea” certification is no joke if you take it back to your boat and drill on it at least once a year.
Cheers

[HeinSdL]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

I have the ICC, I got it several years ago to leave options for chartering in the Med open. I must say that it is colossally expensive and of very little value. They can literally take you from zero to ICC in 2 weeks on a boat. Other than that one certificate, I have none. And don't see any value in that or any other to be carried with me on a boat.

And to be honest, I don't currently have an ICC. Here in the US, it is issued by a private organization called ASA. The certificate comes with an expiration date. To renew it, all you have to do is renew your membership in the organization and pay a renewal fee. No background checks, no performance checks, no credential checks, no experience checks, -- just a bank check. Obviously, I haven't renewed it, but if I ever intend to charter in the mediterranean, I will write that bank check. What a meaningless crock!

My approach is two-fold: firstly whenever I can gain knowledge, I will take the opportunity, secondly I do things based on anecdotal evidence seen on eg this forum and through practical experience gained myself.

So with regards to the first point the ICC in The Netherlands happens to be relatively easy to get, study + exam, done. It's the umpteenth time I had to learn all the usual stuff but I recognize that the reinforcement of knowledge is beneficial.

The second point I find quite important. I have heard accounts of interactions between skippers and authorities (customs, law enforcement, etc) both on entering harbours and out at sea (including myself getting boarded by customs well north of The Netherlands), and the display of a bunch of certificates have often eased the situation even when said certs were not actually mandatory. So my boat is Part I registered in the UK, obviously has the radio/EPIRB registered, I have the radio licence, the ICC and decent insurance. That combination, even though, again, is not always mandatory, does convey a degree of comfort to any authority that the ship is well run. Note I don't have any eg RYA offshore qualifications but I like to think that the 10's of thousands of miles sailed over the last 40 years suffice.

Most of my sailing I have done first in dinghies and later as crew on racing yachts with the occasional delivery thrown in. Now, managing my own boat, I find the additional level of responsibility a challenge (would prefer to do without) and as such I try to do everything within my reach to be as prepared and responsible as possible. This is also the main reason I participate on this forum: to discover where my knowledge falls short, in safety.

[s/v Jedi]

The ICC exams may not be difficult to pass, but the coastal navigation part of it isn’t incomplete and should keep you from crashing on the jetty.

I have seen plenty fail that exam.