Sailing boat overrun by motoryacht, deadly accident

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Wotname

The use of the emphasised words. The Colregs places different burdens (responsibilities / obligations) on different types of vessels.

And in different conditions. See Rules 9,10 and 13.

Case in point , a powerboat travelling at 5 knots (a tender, fishing etc) being overtaken by a sailboat at 7 knots. In that case, the sailboat is required to keep clear of the power boat.

[AllenRbrts]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

I wonder how all those boats travelled the planet without smashing into each other continuously prior to AIS.

Many posts have assumed the sailboat could have known a collision risk existed 10 miles prior to accident assuming both boats had AIS. Not so clear that is correct.

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

I wonder how all those boats travelled the planet without smashing into each other continuously prior to AIS.

I guess they followed Rule 5 instead of foolishly relying on electronic aids.

"Every vessel shall at all times maintain a proper look-out by sight and hearing ... "

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by wingssail

This occurred in what is commonly known as the East Channel between Vashon Island and the mainland of Washington State at Lat 47 deg 23N 122 deg 21W. There is from this location approximately 7 miles of unobstructed visibility to the SW and 20 miles of unobstructed visibility to the NW. The channel is 1.8 miles in width and the depth is over 600 feet. There are no rocks or reefs or other hazards.

The VTS system there occupies 1.43nm of the 1.8 nm wide body of water, from the west shoreline to nearly the east shoreline. The separation zone is .3nm and the lanes are between .37nm and .65nm in width. There is not a precautionary zone at this location.

Should not the ship have anticipated our tack to follow the normal route? Is it OK for the ship to speed through the night at 20 knots on a path that would cause it to overtake within a dozen meters a vessel under sail? There were no constraints on the ship due to water depth or narrowness of the passage we both were in.

The ship, however, could also have prevented it by travelling at a safe speed and staying farther away from our sailboat. It's clear he saw us because he sounded his horn but still he piloted his vessel to pass us within about 100 meters which, when we changed direction, brought us within about 15 meters. Why didn't he honk 5 times when he was still a couple of miles away? At that point we would have been on a port tack preceding perpendicular to his course on a nearly steady bearing and he should have signaled his concern. But no, crickets. As it was we did cross in front of him only because he was turning to port and then it was by the barest of margins. At that point we tacked to starboard and began converging with him again but we missed him, so lucky.

I can only assume the ship/pilot anticipated you would tack before reaching the traffic lane. Yes, that is a little presumptuous, but it is the reality for large ships that transit areas where there is a lot of small traffic in the vicinity. I see from your explanation that you were in the vicinity of Point Robinson - that's a nearly-90º turn, obscured by Maury Is, so 1 prolonged blast would have been an appropriate signal. He should have also sounded 2 short when he turned to port, but I assume they opted to omit that signal if there was no other commercial traffic in range.

From your assessment, I sense that you don't quite understand the requirement for sailing vessels to not impede power-driven vessels following a lane. If he was following a lane at 20 kts (doubtful it was that fast) then yes, he has an expectation to be able to do so without being impeded by sailboats.

You don't say how large this vessel was, but you seem to lack an appreciation of the manoeuvring limitations of large vessels. At that turn, the traffic lane is 700 yds wide, and the vessel was constrained to it, except to avoid immediate danger. Seattle Traffic are sticklers and will call out vessels if they see them stray out of the lanes, and I believe they will levy fines. Large ships don't turn on a dime, and the turning circle would take up a lot of that corner.

Originally Posted by wingssail

We were idiots, but he was negligent, in my opinion.

Maybe. Notwithstanding his limitations and the requirement to not be impeded, if a risk of collision existed, he would still be required to avoid. The practicality of this is another matter. As you've indicated, plying the waters of Puget Sound, they'll see lots of recreational vessels bopping around on the fringes of their lanes - so they probably wouldn't be able to proceed if they kept stopping for every one of them that was apparently coming their way at some point. Same thing with the 5 short blasts; if they did that every time they saw a vessel apparently playing chicken with them, it would turn into a continuous stream of short blasts. So they likely made the assumption that you saw them and would avoid them - I'm not saying that was a good idea, but it is what it is.

Originally Posted by wingssail

I am a little tired of a few senile powerboaters who seem to think that they are the only persons who know what they are talking about. I understand rule 9 and 10.

I don't know if this is directed at me or not, but I'm not senile, and my boat is a ketch. A lot of recreational boaters know very little about the Colregs, so those of us who've had the benefit of formal training, in-depth study and/or careers as deck officers are eager to share our wisdom. This isn't meant as a show of contempt or superiority, but is an earnest effort to make our boating community more knowledgeable about the Rules and therefore, safer. It benefits all of us. While a question about the Rules might be addressed to you, it's really directed at the larger forum, to generate that discussion that will enhance the understanding of a particular rule, by anyone reading the thread - I hope you take it in that vein.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

...I hope you take it in that vein.

OK.

As for the ship we were discussing, my take was that he never saw us and he was just following his planned course, including the turn to the left at 'TB'. And I'd guess he blew two sound signals as he made the turn, but in the heat of the moment we only heard it as one.

[Lodesman]

Stumbled upon this and thought due to the similarities between the incidents, it's worth sharing:


https://www.boatingmag.com/story/how...reck-happened/

[Rumrace]

The entire sailors vs powerboaters is tripe. I make a point of avoiding the lawn chair bunch who are involved.
There are way more stupid power boaters than sailboaters cause there are way more power boats.
I suggest hold up a rule book and knowing your right while presenting yourself as a dumb target for an idiot on any craft youve neglected your duty to your crew and ship. Being able to recite a rule book brings no one back from the dead.
Most Power boaters have no idea of the handling of a sail boat. Why the hell would they? They just think you’re being a rude idiot by cutting across your path without a glance.
One comment “ the power boater can just chop the throttle”. Maybe that’s a case where the for ever frugal sailor hasn’t taken the time to consider the operation of a power boat and the fuel it takes to return to plane. No consideration is given to the power boats crew who have to catch a rail to hang onto sudden move.
It’s real simple to me you either care about your craft and crews safety or winning arguments. I sail way more than the arm chair warriors talking smack from pure assumption , just try my best not to be rude.

[AKA-None]

Originally Posted by Rumrace

The entire sailors vs powerboaters is tripe. I make a point of avoiding the lawn chair bunch who are involved.
There are way more stupid power boaters than sailboaters cause there are way more power boats.
I suggest hold up a rule book and knowing your right while presenting yourself as a dumb target for an idiot on any craft youve neglected your duty to your crew and ship. Being able to recite a rule book brings no one back from the dead.
Most Power boaters have no idea of the handling of a sail boat. Why the hell would they? They just think you’re being a rude idiot by cutting across your path without a glance.
One comment “ the power boater can just chop the throttle”. Maybe that’s a case where the for ever frugal sailor hasn’t taken the time to consider the operation of a power boat and the fuel it takes to return to plane. No consideration is given to the power boats crew who have to catch a rail to hang onto sudden move.
It’s real simple to me you either care about your craft and crews safety or winning arguments. I sail way more than the arm chair warriors talking smack from pure assumption , just try my best not to be rude.

Sigh that’s your argument? I’m going fast where I want to go and it’s inconvenient and expensive for me to consider you?

[Rumrace]

Like I said I think the two people in the argument are equal idiots. So no it’s not my argument it was a dam statement period the end.

[goboatingnow]

All I can say having owned as many powerboats as sail boats , is simply there is no reason a power boat travelling at speed needs to be anywhere near any sailboat and if they are they need to slow down.

Unfortunately there are too many irresponsible mobo drivers that come way to close to sailing boats ( and other small craft ) I see it all the time around where I currently sail . The wash issue alone is problematic don’t mind the collision risk.

Big powerboats have the speed to cover ground hence they can easily stay well out of way , if they don’t have the space , prudence and seamanship should suggest you travel slow and be on the lookout. This type of common sense is not rocket science. The whole thing has nothing to do with the COLREGs.

[Wotname]

.........Big powerboats have the speed to cover ground hence they can easily stay well out of way , if they don’t have the space , prudence and seamanship should suggest you travel slow and be on the lookout. This type of common sense is not rocket science. The whole thing has nothing to do with the COLREGs.

Hmm... Rules 5 & 6 along with 1 & 2 sorta says it does.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Hmm... Rules 5 & 6 along with 1 & 2 sorta says it does.

...Except that there's essentially no real penalty to violations of these rules UNLESS there's an incident that gets investigated.

So you have, if this thread's anecdotes are indicative, frequent violations by recreational powerboaters of 5 & 6. But it usually just results in fist-shaking and some fingers, and a minute or two of annoyance and bobbing in the wake.

This thread's subject accident - egregious violation of 5 & 6 by the powerboater. Who gets most of the thread's scorn? The sailboat skipper... he must not have followed colregs .

Honestly, this isn't about colregs. Outside of gross negligence, the missing ingredients in most powerboat/sailboat encounters are courtesy and consideration. Running fast and close to sailboats is absence of both.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Hmm... Rules 5 & 6 along with 1 & 2 sorta says it does.

It’s not , because a good mobo driver will not place the boat in a position where a risk of collision might occur and on the oft change that might occur will mitigate their speed to ensure around them are safe.

COLRegs is not what should be going through the mobo drivers head. What should be going through it is safety first

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

...Except that there's essentially no real penalty to violations of these rules UNLESS there's an incident that gets investigated.

So you have, if this thread's anecdotes are indicative, frequent violations by recreational powerboaters of 5 & 6. But it usually just results in fist-shaking and some fingers, and a minute or two of annoyance and bobbing in the wake.

This thread's subject accident - egregious violation of 5 & 6 by the powerboater. Who gets most of the thread's scorn? The sailboat skipper... he must not have followed colregs .

Honestly, this isn't about colregs. Outside of gross negligence, the missing ingredients in most powerboat/sailboat encounters are courtesy and consideration. Running fast and close to sailboats is absence of both.

As I said +1

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

It’s not , because a good mobo driver will not place the boat in a position where a risk of collision might occur and on the oft change that might occur will mitigate their speed to ensure around them are safe.

COLRegs is not what should be going through the mobo drivers head. What should be going through it is safety first

The bolded bit works both ways.

We are a 7.5 knot boat so speed is hardly an issue but we have had on several occasions sail boats put themselves in potential harms way for no other reason than being a dick.