Sailing boat overrun by motoryacht, deadly accident

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Rumrace View Post
If you guys survive your accident hire a lawyer and don’t talk. The judges know accidents are caused by two people.
They are not resolved by all assuming visions of winning some status on a forum.

its not debated here to solve the cause of the accident or lay blame on them , its a discussion about the general issue as it applies to all such situations

[Wotname]

Thread is again open after several personal attacks have been deleted. Please remember to state your opinion respectfully. You may challenge another opinion but you may not insult or attack another member.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

by the way a big fast mobo heading straight for you is not easy to avoid, as you have no ideas how he will turn

Unless you're stationary, you don't need to avoid the ones "heading" straight at you. It's the ones that have courses that converge with yours, that you have to worry about.

The invisible X in the ocean, ahead of you where you will collide is easy to avoid. If you don't wait until the last second to turn, and they subsequently turn, they will then still have time to turn again. Obviously a turn by them indicates someone is at the controls, and it's been repeated over and over, they simply have to input a/another flick of the wrist to avoid you. And if it's a situation where the AP is steering and the idiot in charge is down below fixing a snack, then your action alone will save your bacon.

You are quite right in saying it is poor seamanship, impolite, even illegal for fast power vessels to buzz close by other vessels. If such a situation appears to be forming, why would you want to continue on to an apparent close pass?
Identify the vessel and call them on VHF, sound 5 short, and if they don't take early, positive action, assume they won't and take your own action.
If you're in a jurisdiction that has some identifiable authority over vessels, then take video, write down the particulars, and report the offending vessel. You've stated that most countries don't have "on the spot fines" - I don't know how you've established that. I figure most boaters don't know who, if anybody, is responsible for policing boaters in their country/area. But every country that is a signatory of the Colregs convention, is required to make the colregs into law, in their jurisdictions. If there's a law, there's usually some regulatory instrument to apply punishment for infractions.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Unless you're stationary, you don't need to avoid the ones "heading" straight at you. It's the ones that have courses that converge with yours, that you have to worry about.

The invisible X in the ocean, ahead of you where you will collide is easy to avoid. If you don't wait until the last second to turn, and they subsequently turn, they will then still have time to turn again. Obviously a turn by them indicates someone is at the controls, and it's been repeated over and over, they simply have to input a/another flick of the wrist to avoid you. And if it's a situation where the AP is steering and the idiot in charge is down below fixing a snack, then your action alone will save your bacon.

You are quite right in saying it is poor seamanship, impolite, even illegal for fast power vessels to buzz close by other vessels. If such a situation appears to be forming, why would you want to continue on to an apparent close pass?
Identify the vessel and call them on VHF, sound 5 short, and if they don't take early, positive action, assume they won't and take your own action.
If you're in a jurisdiction that has some identifiable authority over vessels, then take video, write down the particulars, and report the offending vessel. You've stated that most countries don't have "on the spot fines" - I don't know how you've established that. I figure most boaters don't know who, if anybody, is responsible for policing boaters in their country/area. But every country that is a signatory of the Colregs convention, is required to make the colregs into law, in their jurisdictions. If there's a law, there's usually some regulatory instrument to apply punishment for infractions.

Contact by vhf , that’s a joke , sounding 5 short , nobody has a clue what that means.

The trouble is at speed closing on you , they cover ground at a terrifying rate. If you turn to starboard just as they turn , things get tricky fast , you may have to tack or gybe to make that turn and this takes time and time is not on your side

You can assume

(A) they’ll never answer the vhf , they may not even speak English

(B) their knowledge of the COLREGs can be assumed to be zero

(C) the very fact they are closing at speed indicates they are abject idiots.

The fact is a collision occurred after a sailboat changed course , this is a huge area of concern

All this would be avoided if the faster boat either slowed down or stayed well away.

Few countries certainly in the med have on the spot fines in open water. A court needs to establish guilt before a fine can be imposed.

You’d be a brave person to report behaviour in a foreign country. It could result in both boats being impounded whilst the court apportions blame and in the meantime you have to pay to be represented.

I’ve had Spanish trawlermen play chicken with me at 2am and French trawlermen try and deliberately drag nets across my bows

Don’t mention COLREGs , it’s s joke.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Contact by vhf , that’s a joke , sounding 5 short , nobody has a clue what that means.

With AIS it's easier to identify, but certainly might avoid VHF if language might be an issue. Even if they don't know what 5 short means, it might wake someone up.

The trouble is at speed closing on you , they cover ground at a terrifying rate. If you turn to starboard just as they turn , things get tricky fast , you may have to tack or gybe to make that turn and this takes time and time is not on your side

"Turn to starboard" depends on where you were to begin with. Turning away and paralleling the course of the other boat is generally a safe bet, but there are occasions when it's preferable to turn towards - dependent on the situation. As I said, if you haven't left it to the last possible second, it won't matter if they turn - they have the manoeuvrability to counter the turn, or turn tighter - part of the reason I prefer to turn away, but if they're turning, then they more than likely see you, which is half the battle.
The fact is a collision occurred after a sailboat changed course , this is a huge area of concern

I think this should be taken with a grain of salt. If it changed course, it is then implied that it had either cleared ahead of the MV, or the MV then turned too, which doesn't make any sense. That turn would have taken 30 seconds or so, and had to have started when the MV was a third of a mile away.
All this would be avoided if the faster boat either slowed down or stayed well away.

Few countries certainly in the med have on the spot fines in open water. A court needs to establish guilt before a fine can be imposed.

You’d be a brave person to report behaviour in a foreign country. It could result in both boats being impounded whilst the court apportions blame and in the meantime you have to pay to be represented.

Like I said, if there's an identifiable authority, you can report - if the locals use a kangaroo court, then don't.

I’ve had Spanish trawlermen play chicken with me at 2am and French trawlermen try and deliberately drag nets across my bows

Don’t mention COLREGs , it’s s joke.

You are aware that you have to keep out of the way of the trawlers?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

You are aware that you have to keep out of the way of the trawlers?

Hard to do when they target you , I managed to tell the tale and not get damaged.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Hard to do when they target you , I managed to tell the tale and not get damaged.

They're chasing the fish, not you. Best to avoid them by a wide margin.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

All this would be avoided if the faster boat either slowed down or stayed well away.

Meant to address this too. This is all well and good, when they're keeping a good lookout, or able to. In the collision being discussed, lookout (or rather a lack thereof) seems to have been a big factor. People are complacent, people are stupid. Sometimes none of the above. What if there's a bug in the fancy fly-by-wire controls? What if the person at the helm has a stroke? What if...?

The key take-away, is that no-one should count on the other vessel to avoid collision. I'm not saying to never stand-on and always avoid all other vessels, but I am saying that you maintain a good lookout, use the tools you have to determine the risk of collision, and trust the other vessel will take appropriate action - up to a point. Always be thinking "what will I do, if they don't do what they should do, by the time I think they should do it."

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Always be thinking "what will I do, if they don't do what they should do, by the time I think they should do it."

^^^^^ This!

[Uncle Bob]

Have to smile at this thread, no amount of speculation or conjecture will make an ounce of difference to the outcome, which will be delivered after the fat lady sings. I wait with interest.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

They're chasing the fish, not you. Best to avoid them by a wide margin.

Oh believe you me they were chasing me , laughing out the windows shaking bottles at me and turning the trawlers and playing chicken. The Galician inshore fishermen don’t like yachts and the week before sone yacht had cut itself free from a net ruining it. ( I was told later ) I couldn’t avoid them they chased me for two hours.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Meant to address this too. This is all well and good, when they're keeping a good lookout, or able to. In the collision being discussed, lookout (or rather a lack thereof) seems to have been a big factor. People are complacent, people are stupid. Sometimes none of the above. What if there's a bug in the fancy fly-by-wire controls? What if the person at the helm has a stroke? What if...?



The key take-away, is that no-one should count on the other vessel to avoid collision. I'm not saying to never stand-on and always avoid all other vessels, but I am saying that you maintain a good lookout, use the tools you have to determine the risk of collision, and trust the other vessel will take appropriate action - up to a point. Always be thinking "what will I do, if they don't do what they should do, by the time I think they should do it."

I agree with your general synopsis , always assume the closing vessel is manned by idiots asleep at the wheel , especially large mobos.

I also support the mantra “ do not stand on into danger “ that can end up being “ right , dead !! right “

Buy maybe the yacht turned thinking it was avoiding the mobo

I know I had some heart stopping moments this spring when a big mobo altered course just as I altered course and maintained a collision bearing , at the speed he was closing it meant little time was left to speculate who will turn again first. Luckily he did and veered away , very unsettling.

[David B]

Originally Posted by sailormed

https://www.lanazione.it/grosseto/cr...cole-1.7916894

Above link is a video in italian (which I do not speak), about an accident yesterday afternoon of the coast of Argentario (Porto Ercole), north of Rome.
A big motoryacht ran over a sailing boat under sail. Result: 2 dead, 1 missing, 1 in hospital with lifelong disabilities. Motoryacht under command of 2 persons.
Investigation ongoing. I have no other informations.

Terrible! We all need to be ever vigilant.