Sailing boat overrun by motoryacht, deadly accident

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

You are, of course, wrong. I added the relevant quote, from a linked report, to my previous post. Maybe do some reading. Regardless, give-way or not, the sailboat likely didn't have time or options to successfully avoid collision.

Are you delusional? If you believe he made a 180 in extremis and got hit broadside, then you have no concept of the speed differential. The sailboat may have, at some time, passed in front of the powerboat, then turned around and doubled back, but by then would be crossing as the give way vessel.

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

In many cases, pedestrians get mowed down even though being properly capable and aware.

Bull crap! They get mowed down, because they step into traffic without looking.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by wyb2

The fact they still got hit after turning the boat around means they likely wouldn’t have if they did nothing at all. This only proves the point that several have made: it’s dam hard to tell the exact heading of a fast-moving vessel that’s bearing down on you.

If it was that close, it would be obvious if they were dead ahead of the other vessel. Who would do a 180 in that situation? This story is full of holes.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Seeing as ones average horizon is around 3-4nm seeing something 5nm away and judging its course would be pretty amazing..
The powerboat on the other hand with its high bridgedeck and various aids has no excuse.
Abysmal watch keeping.

Why would you need to judge the other vessel's course at 5nm?

What is its bearing doing? And is it getting closer? That's the only thing that's important at that point.

Abysmal watchkeeping on both vessels.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by wingssail

This brings up an interesting point: If the powerboat can see the sailboat at 10 miles out then certainly from that point on they are required to keep out of the way of the sailboat.

Wow! Just Wow! You should really read a guide to the colregs - Cockcroft, Farwells, there are others. Most are pretty good, and explain this.

[requiem]

Originally Posted by wingssail

This brings up an interesting point: If the powerboat can see the sailboat at 10 miles out then certainly from that point on they are required to keep out of the way of the sailboat.

Not necessarily. I think elsewhere on this forum Lord Esher has been quoted on the obligation not applying when the potential collision is sufficiently distant in time ("it cannot be said that they are applicable however far off the ships may be"), Cockcroft notes a definition based explicitly on intercepting courses was rejected for this reason, and Farwell's cites The Dexter in which the court wrote:

Rules of navigation such as the one mentioned are obligatory upon vessels approaching each other from the time the necessity for precaution begins and continue to be applicable as the vessels advance so long as the means and opportunity to avoid the danger remain. They do not apply to a vessel required to keep her course after the approach is so near that the collision is inevitable, and are equally inapplicable to vessels of every description while they are yet so distant from each other that measures of precaution have not become necessary to avoid a collision.

While this does introduce a bit of subjectivity into the situation, it reinforces the idea that there's an initial stage where both vessels are free to maneuver. I.e. When I spot a vessel hull-down on the horizon, I become aware of it and can monitor it for potential danger, but it will not be until it has closed some distance and I have made a proper assessment of the situation that the obligation to stand on or give way might apply.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by ChrisJHC

Not sure how you infer this.
At 10nm the power boat may be able to see the yacht, however it is extremely unlikely that the yacht could see the power boat.
Even if they can, there would be no reason to expect that a risk of collision exists - at that distance you would not be able to tell the course or speed of the power boat.

The two boats would have to be much closer before the yacht would be expected to realise that they are the stand on vessel.

Unless you are advocating that anytime you see another vessel that could possibly pose a risk of collision you automatically become the stand on vessel (assuming the usual hierarchy)?
And consequently don’t vary your course or speed?
If so, good luck trying to sail in Sydney Harbour!

Well, you are pointing out what I see as a problem with the rules:

Whether there is a risk of collision or not the rule 18 says the powerboat must keep out of the way of the sailing vessel (that's simple, OK?). No distance or time limits are applied.

But the Rule 17 says that if one vessel must "Keep out of the way" then the other must hold course and speed. (Oh, UGH)

So, technically speaking a sailing vessel could be required to hold course and speed even when he can't even see the power vessel which is now required to keep out of his way.

So, obviously at 10 miles none of us pays attention to this stupid aspect of the rule.

But when they get closer and both vessels are aware of the other, then the sailboat is definitely restrained by the rule to hold course and speed and is not permitted to turn away, and some powerboats (not the A***les we've been talking about here), are going to be miffed if the sailboat turns, and if something goes wrong, could be entitled to claim the sailboat violated rule 17 and therefore is at fault.

I've had a conversation on this topic and been told that the sailboat must hold course and speed until the basically last minute. Nope, not me.

This rule must be changed.

BTW, at sea, with AIS, I am very well aware of the oncoming ships at 10 miles AND, I've sailed in Sydney Harbor, and you know what? Common sense prevails over Colregs, as it should.

[Donnybrook]

Here's an incident from Oshkosh, Wisconsin related to an irresponsible boat operator. The guy turned off his lights and fled after hitting a party boat with 40+ people on board. Thankfully no one was killed. Imagine if someone like this guy struck a much smaller boat far from land.

https://wtaq.com/2022/07/21/surveillance-video-shows-oshkosh-hit-and-run-boat-crash/

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Wow! Just Wow! You should really read a guide to the colregs - Cockcroft, Farwells, there are others. Most are pretty good, and explain this.

Lodesman, I have only the USCG publication to go by. If there are case law examples which modify the actual Colregs, or privately published guides or interpretations which impose limitations on Colregs which are not printed in Colregs itself, then how would a normal boater who buys a Colregs book, where they are not mentioned, know this?

I suppose a jurisdiction could require operator's licenses and training in which such things are covered, but we in the US don't have that for private operators. Meanwhile I think we are doing pretty good if we even have a copy of Colregs itself and try to know it and understand it.

Personally, if the literal interpretation of the rule is impossible to follow or makes no sense, I disregard it and use common sense.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Are you delusional? If you believe he made a 180 in extremis and got hit broadside, then you have no concept of the speed differential. The sailboat may have, at some time, passed in front of the powerboat, then turned around and doubled back, but by then would be crossing as the give way vessel.



Bull crap! They get mowed down, because they step into traffic without looking.

Not in Europe.. we have guys driving full tilt into markets and onto pavements just to see how nimble pedestrians are.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

If you can't see another vessel at more than 1nm, can you really say you've kept a "really good visual watch"?

The turn of phrase I used was "identify a potential hazard." Which is feasible at 1 nm.

Sure, if you're paying attention, you can see a white dot at 10 nm.

You can see it's another boat heading in your general direction at speed, at 5 nm.

You can be concerned at 3 nm, but I don't think it's feasible to identify a potential hazard with enough accuracy to do anything, from a typical sailboat, with typical sailboat capabilities.

[Pegu Club]

In my experience far to many power boaters will not decrease speed when in close proximity to slower and less maneuverable vessels, this is the root cause of these collisions, it unfortunately gives the responsible power boaters a bad image, which is unfortunate, because they are good folk,

Fair winds,

[wyb2]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Bull crap! They get mowed down, because they step into traffic without looking.

You can learn a lot about a person by watching which hills they choose to die on. In this case one crew appears completely negligent, while the other appears to have made some mistakes. But the thing you need to convince us all of is that there’s plenty of blame on both sides. Have you thought about why that’s so important to you?

Have you thought about why it’s important to you that when a pedestrian gets hit by a car, it must be the pedestrians fault?

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by wingssail

This brings up an interesting point: If the powerboat can see the sailboat at 10 miles out then certainly from that point on they are required to keep out of the way of the sailboat.

And from Rule 17 once the powerboat is required to keep out of the way, the sailboat (the stand on vessel) is required to maintain course and speed.

To me this is a problem with the rule. As a sailboat I want to stay out of the way of ships and powerboats. Even if it is them who is required to keep out of my way, I don't like to put it to the test, too much at risk (my life). I don't want to be locked into my course and speed (even if that, for a sailboat, is possible) until it is late in the closing situation when I can decide that they aren't doing anything and I can take action myself. By that time any miscalculation could be fatal.

I don't like this because it means that for some undefined period of time I can't turn away from an oncoming powerboat or ship without risk of being deemed to have violated rule 17.

It means that I have to depend on somebody on the bridge of the ship or powerboat whom I can't even see to take action and I can't do anything until it becomes apparent they are not going to do that. When is that? I guess the rule leaves it up to me, if I think it is apparent then I can take action.

But this is stupid in my opinion. It just adds to the stress and danger.

I'd say that if you take action so early that they're unlikely to be planning a maneuver yet then you're in the clear and will likely have improved the situation by the time you're close enough that anyone is maneuvering. Plus, if you can see them that far out, you'll be able to tell as you get closer if they've made an adjustment to resolve the situation or not yet. And of course, even as the stand on vessel you aren't obligated to stand on beyond the point where you can resolve the situation yourself. So if you'd have to turn a mile out to ensure enough clearance, then do it. Just make sure it's enough that the other vessel will know you've turned (and hopefully not do anything stupid and conflicting).

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

That's becoming apparent.

But in the hope that not all powerboaters are sociopaths, maybe some will understand the point that it's more than simply discourteous for powerboaters to insist on speeding so close to sailboats. And then yelling colregs and the obligations of "stand on" when a sailboat doesn't follow their expectations in the unnecessary encounter.

When a powerboat speeds close to much slower boats, everything is on the powerboater's terms:

• Its speed (and often size) makes any potential encounters more dangerous
• it dominates any considerations. For slower boats and sailboats, another boat that's 500+ m away is... scenery. But when it's a powerboat bearing down on you. it's now a collision risk.
• A speeding powerboat has the most control over its course and speed. A much slower boat can do little to mitigate a potential collision.
• Be honest - who can make accurate assessments of speed and course of an oncoming boat that far away? Except maybe another speeding powerboat. Funny how powerboaters can make allowances for each other, but not for slower boats.

Scenario: you're in your sailboat, there's a powerboat speeding towards you. As the distance between the two boats decreases, you don't see any change from the powerboat - no course change, no speed reduction. Do you:

A: hold your course and cringe, not knowing if the powerboater has even seen you?
B: turn broadside in the hopes that your motion and greater visibility will elicit some recognition from the powerboater?

(of course neither option was viable in this thread's tragic accident)

Well, of course the colregs legal team will shout A.

I'm advocating for C: it's an a-hole move to speed so close to slower-moving boats. Please don't.

In the mid 90's I was delivering my Tartan Blackwatch from Port Hueneme to Santa Cruz, Ca. We were motor sailing 5 miles off Santa Barbara. It was dusk, I had my steaming light on and the main up. A 50ft. yuppie trawler was barreling in on us, doing at least 15 kts, about 2 miles away. I altered course and got on the VHF announcing my intentions. Then he altered course back on us again. At first I thought it might be the USCG. We slowed from 5kts to around 3 kts and altered course again...same thing. Now he was a 1/2 mile away, we altered course for a 3rd time and I lit the sail up with one of those million candle power hand held light. At 500 ft. I turned 90 degrees to 1) give us at least a little room and 2) be stern to his wake.

I got on the VHF and sarcastically thanked him. The speaker crackled with..."What the matter, you don't know the rules of the road?" I thought so, you did hear me. I answered back with..."What rule is that...how close you can come to me?"

[Celestialsailor]

Originally Posted by boatman61

Not in Europe.. we have guys driving full tilt into markets and onto pavements just to see how nimble pedestrians are.

Do you guys over there use the point system like we do in the US?


2 points for slow grandmas
4 points for any tourist
6 points if you can take out an entire family...