Vessel sinks off NJ

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by ShipOfFools

reminds me of another north atlantic disaster...

Can you explain what the similarity is? I can't see it myself.

Jim

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

A sad story... and I can hardly imagine the feelings of distress when she went from 90 deg to 180. Keeping your cool and staying attached was truly good management of a bad situation, so very well done.

I'm left with wondering what the stability curve of that design might be like. Apparently the AVS must be close to 90 degrees, and to me, that is a frightening idea. Mast in the water knock downs are not all that rare, but most designs will rapidly recover from such events. This Spray did not and I can't but wonder why.

The story does once again show how very effective EPIRBs are, and the admonition to locate them where they can be accessed after a sudden knockdown is well stated. Kudos to the crew for their coolness and for their willingness to share their experience.

Jim

I think he explained it there. Fairly flat beamy hull, no external ballast, started flooding once on its side, and it was inclined to stay capsized until the flotation of the mast rolled it up. Sounds a lot like the dories I used to row, but those with their sheer and rocker could be coaxed back from a capsize by one or two people pulling on a "flip line" if the compartments were still fairly watertight. Once flooded though it would just roll around pretty easily (before it was ready to sink!) so I can imagine why it could roll back up to 90 once it was more flooded. I think the original Spray was originally like a Chesapeake, shallow bay, design, not really intended for circumnavigations.

his quote:
Two, BERTIE was an old design and did not have outside ballast, but she had managed to navigate 30,000 miles including many strong gales with no problem.

Even a newer design with outside ballast will be overwhelmed by the conditions we faced. If the wind pins the boat on her side it is far too easy to flood through the companionway which is what happened to us. She did not go inverted until she flooded and if the hatch was closed she MIGHT have come back up.

[masonc]

What is external ballast?

[JAFO]

Originally Posted by masonc

What is external ballast?

What your Cheoy Lee Offshore 33 has.. an external ballast keel, probably lead. Bertie's ballast was all internal, probably concrete.

[masonc]

Originally Posted by JAFO

What your Cheoy Lee Offshore 33 has.. an external ballast keel, probably lead. Bertie's ballast was all internal, probably concrete.

Got it, thanks. The Cheoy Lee has an iron ballast, btw.

[MartinR]

Internal ballast is perfectly viable. Has been used for thousands of years. Some of the most seaworthy designs ever, like the Bristol Channel Pilot cutters, used internal ballast. Many Spray replicas have successfully cruised the world. And, all the worlds cargo ships, from the smallest to the biggest use internal ballast (water mostly).

[SV Windrush II]

This is why traditional wooden boats scare me sailing them offshore, I know because I have one. None of the hatches seal, louvers on all the access boards, dorade vents that are open, etc etc. If my boat ever when over, water would be gushing in from everywhere. Now that I am refitting her, I am modernizing all the hatches, vents and entry so that either they already are sealed or I can quickly seal them in seconds if needed. And of course loose ballast is just a huge no no.

[MartinR]

Traditional wooden boats had no dorado vents, few/small skylights, reasonably tight, No louvred vents, heavy boards and hatches. The rest came when they were converted to yachts.

My boats were very much the same. I had louvered vents for the drop-in board, but another massive for bad weather.

The loose ballast, though, maybe was not the best safety feature.

[SV Windrush II]

Originally Posted by MartinR

Traditional wooden boats had no dorado vents, few/small skylights, reasonably tight, No louvred vents, heavy boards and hatches. The rest came when they were converted to yachts.

My boats were very much the same. I had louvered vents for the drop-in board, but another massive for bad weather.

The loose ballast, though, maybe was not the best safety feature.

Yes you are speaking of pre-yacht era. I should have been more specific and referred to traditional wooden yachts But then again I have sailed mine singlehanded across oceans without any knock downs yet thank God. but next time I will be able to button her down so I will have less to worry about

[MartinR]

Fortunately, traditional yachts do normally not have internal ballast.

Modern boats are more prone to knock-down. Wider beam, lower center of gravity, higher GM.

[Don C L]

Yeah it’s really not about being made of wood or if the boat is traditional, it is where the center of buoyancy and center of gravity are as the boat starts to heel. So even an old wooden boat, as long as it has a low center of gravity can respond safely to knock downs. A beamy boat has good stability initially of course, but without external ballast, once it is up to 90 degrees, it’s in trouble. When you look at boats like Spray, as it is heeled, with low freeboard relative to beam and displacement, the hull has to submerge deeply to provide the buoyancy to support the displacement (weight) of hull and ballast, thus making any hatches vulnerable. Perhaps some have thought that since Slocum sailed it around the world, it must be a sea-worthy design, but that’s not necessarily so.

[Jim Cate]

Perhaps some have thought that since Slocum sailed it around the world, it must be a sea-worthy design, but that’s not necessarily so.

A very valid point, Don. They seem to forget that he also sailed across the Atlantic (after being wrecked) in a boat he built on the beach from materials he scrounged. He was a rather accomplished sea man, and it was more his skills that lead to his circumnavigation than the wonderfulness of Spray!

I've had this discussion with many Spray aficionados, and they never seem to get it, being in love with their boats. Most of these folks are not sailing true Spray replicas (as apparently Bertie was) but rather the ubiquitous Roberts steel designs bearing that name and general shape... but not the hull shape!

But anyhow... so sorry that an interesting and much loved yacht is gone.

Jim

[argonauta1]

Either the keel was lost or there was a problem with C of G in the replica designing process.

[MartinR]

The vessel had no keel to loose! If i understand correctly, the companionway hatch was open at the time of the accident, causing the yacht to fill with water. What I can not see is if the companionway was offset from the center line.

[MartinR]

Sailboat designer John G. Hanna said of Spray, "I hold that her peculiar merit as a single-hander was in her remarkable balance of all effective centres of effort and resistance on her midship section line." Hanna nevertheless felt it necessary to warn prospective circumnavigators looking for a suitable vessel that "Spray is the worst possible boat for anyone lacking the experience and resourcefulness of Slocum to take offshore."

This is from Wikipedia, but I guess there is a grain of truth there.