Panama Canal cost?

[barnakiel]

We could be better off if we just collected all our fees together and blew up a big hall in the isthmus. No Panama Canal, no silly high charges, no robberies. Just wondering how much current would be running by such a 'hole in the wall'. I remember one side was very tidal the other less so.

The Chinese were going to build another one in Nicaragua but this one is said not to allow leisure traffic at all. Bummer.

Any news on the Chinese canal? Is it being built now?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_Canal

Cheers,
b.

[hellosailor]

b-
From what I'd heard, the Chinese government is in fact the new "owner" of the improved Panama Canal, and they've sunk big bucks into it. So putting a second cheaper-to-operate sealevel canal in Nicaragua would only compete with their existing investment. Not worth doing unless the PC runs at capacity and more is needed.

I'm personally terribly disappointed in our government. I understand all the machinations that went on to build the PC in the first place, but I still feel that the only responsible way to "give it back" to the state we created in order to run it, would have been to be ecologically responsible, and FILL IT BACK IN before handing it back over.

Hey, that's the least we could have done, restore the jungle.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

b-
From what I'd heard, the Chinese government is in fact the new "owner" of the improved Panama Canal, and they've sunk big bucks into it. So putting a second cheaper-to-operate sealevel canal in Nicaragua would only compete with their existing investment. Not worth doing unless the PC runs at capacity and more is needed.

I'm personally terribly disappointed in our government. I understand all the machinations that went on to build the PC in the first place, but I still feel that the only responsible way to "give it back" to the state we created in order to run it, would have been to be ecologically responsible, and FILL IT BACK IN before handing it back over.

Hey, that's the least we could have done, restore the jungle.

Do a bit more research before you thump your chest too proudly...the USA originally stole the canal zone for strategic military and commerce reasons (the USA mainland was a very different place then). By post WW2 the USAs strategic and commercial needs had changed dramatically and the Canal had become a poorly run liabililty. Presidents as early as Eisenhower had considered getting out of the Canal...Carter was just the guy who got stuck signing the treaty.

Re conservation: an unintentional side effect of the exclusion zone which borders the Canal was indeed the preservation of large areas of jungle and wild life. There is some great hiking and wild life watching inside the exclusion zone...also several sections of untouched coast line. Huge troops of Howler Monkeys and several other species of monkeys, sloths, Coatimundis, Crocs, lots of bird life...etc.

Suggested reading: David McCullough's "Path Between the Seas". THE comprehensive work on the Canal...all the way from the French era to the return to Panamá.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_...tween_the_Seas

An amusing side story is the international game of 3 card montey constructed by Roosevelt and Phillipe Bunau to steal the canal zone. In very rapid succession they fleeced the French, the Colombians, and finally the Panamanians. A book by Bunau on the subject is appropriately titled "I Took Panama".

https://www.amazon.com/Took-Panama-S...=I+took+panama

[hellosailor]

belize, you misread me. I'm not thumping my chest at all, insofar as the politics and motives go. But the history books seem to agree that the US at least fomented the revolution which created Panama, and that the US did this in order to make sure there would be a government favoring and endorsing the US canal project.

Which may not be ancient history, and may or may not demand reparations, at which point one could equally say gee, we really should give it back to COLUMBIA since all the land that is now Panama should be restored to the Columbian government.

Having control of the canal certainly was useful in WW2, and as far as I can tell, the US ran it pretty even-handedly for all comers. So, no apologies for hundred year old politics. We can castigate our government for many actions and policies over the years (and arguably should) but "giving back" the canal is no simple return. Or perhaps, we shouldn't have given it back to the rebels (Panamanians) or the Columbians (ex-Spain) but rather, to the indigenous peoples, who really have the prior claim to it?

[model 10]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Do a bit more research before you thump your chest too proudly...the USA originally stole the canal zone for strategic military and commerce reasons".

How about mentioning who they stole it from, Columbia.

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Guy

How about mentioning who they stole it from, Columbia.

I did mention "Colombia".

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

belize, you misread me. I'm not thumping my chest at all, insofar as the politics and motives go. But the history books seem to agree that the US at least fomented the revolution which created Panama, and that the US did this in order to make sure there would be a government favoring and endorsing the US canal project.

Which may not be ancient history, and may or may not demand reparations, at which point one could equally say gee, we really should give it back to COLUMBIA since all the land that is now Panama should be restored to the Columbian government.

Having control of the canal certainly was useful in WW2, and as far as I can tell, the US ran it pretty even-handedly for all comers. So, no apologies for hundred year old politics. We can castigate our government for many actions and policies over the years (and arguably should) but "giving back" the canal is no simple return. Or perhaps, we shouldn't have given it back to the rebels (Panamanians) or the Columbians (ex-Spain) but rather, to the indigenous peoples, who really have the prior claim to it?

My apologies if I misread.

The USA in fact did later issue an apology and pay additional reparation to Colombia.

Yeah, well, how far do you carry back the do over...the Colombians/Panamanians got fleeced, but later it really benenfited Panama. By contrast, indigenous peoples of the world have gotten screwed much worse and no body is gonna give them jack.

I suspect the Panamanians would now a bit upset by the concept of giving it ALL back to the Colombians (though they already own a substatial chunk of Panama City). [emoji6]

[belizesailor]

...and in dramatic contrast to how things usually go in Central America, Panama has done a great job with the Canal.

I dont know the details of Chinese involvement, if any, but what I hear is that it is managed by a Chinese company. However, all the workers are Panamanian. Ive never physically seen a Chinese precense and Ive transited a few times.

[model 10]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

I did mention "Colombia".

sorry

[belizesailor]

Did a quick search regarding China and the Panama Canal, but other than a few aparent conspirasy theorist sites, I found nothing credible that confirms any official Chinese management or control role.

They are heavily invested in Panama in general though and the largest user of the Canal.

Officially the ACP (Panama) manages the Canal.

http://www.pancanal.com/eng/general/acp-overview.html

[model 10]

What is the story on the old Chinese people in Panama and Central America? Most of the markets are run by Chinese.

[softdown]

Winter time at Cape Horn. What could possibly go wrong?

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by Guy

What is the story on the old Chinese people in Panama and Central America? Most of the markets are run by Chinese.

The amount of Chinese capital flowing into Panama and Central America in general is stagering.

Just here in little Volcan, Pamama there are about half a dozen big "Chinos" (Chinese owned and operated stores). They are large 2-3 story structures. Im guessing about $1M to build...even at Panamanian rates (about $55/sq ft for residential construction, probably less for commercial). And massive inventory...probably another $500K to $1M. The Chino hardware stores are very well equipped...delivery trucks, fork lifts etc...another $300K?

No way all these shopkeeps have that kind of capital.

What Im told is that they are funded by Chinese entities and if they do good...the funding continues to flow...wonder what happens if they dont? 😕

Panama is booming, amazing amounts of construction going on, so these guys are doing good.

[ccannan]

Just to distinguish, there is Chinese government money (of which I'm sure there is lots) that is invested in larger companies and joint projects, and then there is private (individual/private) money that is coming in to buy/operate smaller businesses. The source of the former funds are normally all legit (by most standards). The source of the latter funds may well be either either wealthy individuals/families (sometimes but not always with current/past government connections). Some of that money is legit, some of it is money being laundered. Read the press reports about (legalized money laundering) the high value residential property market in CA (and other high value real estate markets), shell companies, and their purchase/use by Chinese (among others).

[Viking Sailor]

Idea!!!! Instead of building a Wall -- why not a Moat... A.K.A: A Canal -- (The T***p Canal???) Put a Nuc plant a each end to pump sea water for the locks. Then give it to Mexico to improve their economy. With a provision that Cruisers get to transit free. Would solve a lot of problems!!!.