ABYC and ISO Li reference diagram

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

That is not how it works, but it appears that way to you. When the yellow lever is turned to the left, the BMS has full control. You can manually switch on and off, but the BMS can do as well plus it knows if you did so manually.



When you turn the yellow lever to the right, you override the BMS, it can no longer operate the solenoid, but the solenoid is locked in the off position and the only way to turn it on is by turning the lever left again, canceling the manual override of the BMS

Blue seas own application note on choosing a battery relay

“Manual override mechanism—A remote battery switch should have the capability to be operated manually if problems limits its electrical operation. This manual function also should be rugged. A mechanical override is likely to be used in an emergency, where there is an even greater chance for it to be subjected to rough treatment.”

And Nick you are wrong ML RBS can manually be switch on or off and such switching overrides the relay. I verified this in the chandlery

Here’s the section from the ML RBS instruction sheet

“The Manual Control Override Knob provides (Remote Battery Switch Only):
• an added level of safety that allows manual ON-OFF control with or without power • LOCK OFF for servicing the electrical system”


Note clearly ONOFF

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Sorry but I have a hard time believing that as I'm using 10ah less and with 200 watts running through a tracer MPPT I'm finally full by noon .



Now with any lead I would say you are close by 3pm with 240 and 35ah usage,

If your up by the time you say then your not using what you think you are.

Laws of physics and all

Sure I’ve only more monitoring equipment then 100% of people here ( how many have two oscilloscopes on board ) a 30 EE experience.

Sure I can’t tell when my batteries are charged ,today must be Saturday as well cause you said so.

As I’ve said the tail current clearly shows the battery is at nominal 100% by 11am on summer , the BMV 712 does a 100% SOC reset and confirms the nightly AH consumption. This is all on my Victron database

I suggest humbly sir , you are telling your grandmother how to suck eggs

[goboatingnow]

To return to the nonsense about 3Ah

Of course net consumption is half that. My solar panels are doing very little in the latter part of the day, essentially covering the running of the fridge quite easily. I remain at 100 % SOC until nightfall

Hence the nighttime 1.5Ah from the TE relay is nothing of consequence. It’s a fraction of the quiescent load on the batteries at night ( 25-30Ah) Ah including fridge and charging iThingies and sometimes anchor lights etc.

The TE relay is fully fail safe , can be got with auxiliary “ proving “ contacts. And is a available from Chinese sources , as TE makes them in China, for $50

It’s a perfectly acceptable fail safe solution , it’s NOT better or worse then the ML RBS , it’s just different with different design priorities.

I like it’s basic simplicity ,inherent fail safe , and in my opinion consistent with what blue sea themselves have said , every BMS should have a emergency hard mechanical override.

Hence both Ml RBS and TE EV200 offer different approaches to battery bms disconnect. Your design priorities , safety priorities etc will dictate what design decisions you make on this And all other aspects of the battery system

( just like the dc dc / alternator debate )

It’s nonsense people arguing their solution is “ best “ there is no universal best way to do this type of system.

[goboatingnow]

By the way to stop this BS argument I have asked BLue sea technical to specifically answer the issues mentioned. This should put this rather ridiculous ping pong to bed permanently.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Blue seas own application note on choosing a battery relay

“Manual override mechanism—A remote battery switch should have the capability to be operated manually if problems limits its electrical operation. This manual function also should be rugged. A mechanical override is likely to be used in an emergency, where there is an even greater chance for it to be subjected to rough treatment.”

And Nick you are wrong ML RBS can manually be switch on or off and such switching overrides the relay. I verified this in the chandlery

Here’s the section from the ML RBS instruction sheet

“The Manual Control Override Knob provides (Remote Battery Switch Only):
• an added level of safety that allows manual ON-OFF control with or without power • LOCK OFF for servicing the electrical system”


Note clearly ONOFF

You must read my post again and try to understand what it says. The only reason I reply is for others reading this and being confused. I think my previous post was very clear.

The diagram in this thread has a manual switch that locks the BMS out. You can force the battery to be online even when the BMS wants it offline. This is 100% against not just the ABYC recommendations, but it qualifies for a Darwin Award.

The RBS from BlueSea can not do that. When you disable remote control by the BMS, the RBS is OFF and can not be switched on.

When you enable remote control, then you can manually switch it on or off, but so can the BMS. When the BMS wants it off, it will be off, saving battery or even the boat and it’s crew.

This is the problem when you read some documentation but have no hands on experience. You really don’t know enough about it and should bring commenting on such products in line with the lack of experience.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Sure I’ve only more monitoring equipment then 100% of people here ( how many have two oscilloscopes on board ) a 30 EE experience.

Sure I can’t tell when my batteries are charged ,today must be Saturday as well cause you said so.

As I’ve said the tail current clearly shows the battery is at nominal 100% by 11am on summer , the BMV 712 does a 100% SOC reset and confirms the nightly AH consumption. This is all on my Victron database

I suggest humbly sir , you are telling your grandmother how to suck eggs

And what is the said tail and what is the potential out of your panels at the time you take your tail readings?
Sorry but I've to many years with all this to blindly believe . Just because you state it doesn't make it so.
Lastly the BVM710 has been shown to have issues depending on what version of the programing you are runn9ng and when it was last flashed.

Now I don't doubt what you say you are seeing I'm just doubting the accuracy of those readings . FLA is not kind WRT rapid tail charging.

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The RBS from BlueSea can not do that. When you disable remote control by the BMS, the RBS is OFF and can not be switched on.

This does not match what my RBS does, or what I have seen when I played with another one at my local boat store. If the control input is not energized (ie the BMS has commanded the switch off, or the BMS has otherwise failed) I can press down on the yellow plunger in the control knob, and the switch will latch and stay closed. I can rotate the knob 90 degrees to the off position, and both override to off, and lock out the ability of the BMS to turn it on.

Additionally, if the BMS does fail, and lets the CH control go open circuit, the RBS will interpret that as an open signal and open the Contactor. I know the latter to be true as yours truly failed to adequately secure the ground end of my CH control loop and wondered why the RBS suddenly opened when I bumped the wiring harness.

Note that this is on the 7713 rather than the dual pulse input version.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by hjohnson

This does not match what my RBS does, or what I have seen when I played with another one at my local boat store. If the control input is not energized (ie the BMS has commanded the switch off, or the BMS has otherwise failed) I can press down on the yellow plunger in the control knob, and the switch will latch and stay closed. I can rotate the knob 90 degrees to the off position, and both override to off, and lock out the ability of the BMS to turn it on.

Additionally, if the BMS does fail, and lets the CH control go open circuit, the RBS will interpret that as an open signal and open the Contactor. I know the latter to be true as yours truly failed to adequately secure the ground end of my CH control loop and wondered why the RBS suddenly opened when I bumped the wiring harness.

Note that this is on the 7713 rather than the dual pulse input version.

Ah yes, I did not test the 7713, my description is for the 7700 or it’s 24V version, i.e. the pulsed version.

So when your BMS switches the solenoid off, it outputs a zero Volt control signal. When you then press the solenoid down, it locks in the ON position with the BMS still sending that OFF signal?

If so then this isn’t conform ABYC. I also believe there is no easy feedback for the BMS to understand what is happening like with the 7700.

Interesting

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by newhaul

And what is the said tail and what is the potential out of your panels at the time you take your tail readings?

Sorry but I've to many years with all this to blindly believe . Just because you state it doesn't make it so.

Lastly the BVM710 has been shown to have issues depending on what version of the programing you are runn9ng and when it was last flashed.



Now I don't doubt what you say you are seeing I'm just doubting the accuracy of those readings . FLA is not kind WRT rapid tail charging.

Mate leave it off , if I state it so , I’m happy it’s so. This is a field I have 30 years of experience in. I have a full LIN bus based current sensing system which parallels the BMV.

I’m happy the lead acids are close to 100% SOC

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

You must read my post again and try to understand what it says. The only reason I reply is for others reading this and being confused. I think my previous post was very clear.

The diagram in this thread has a manual switch that locks the BMS out. You can force the battery to be online even when the BMS wants it offline. This is 100% against not just the ABYC recommendations, but it qualifies for a Darwin Award.

The RBS from BlueSea can not do that. When you disable remote control by the BMS, the RBS is OFF and can not be switched on.

When you enable remote control, then you can manually switch it on or off, but so can the BMS. When the BMS wants it off, it will be off, saving battery or even the boat and it’s crew.

This is the problem when you read some documentation but have no hands on experience. You really don’t know enough about it and should bring commenting on such products in line with the lack of experience.

I went into the chandlery and we opened the box and tested the relay.

The manual switch locks the RBS ON or OFF. In both positions the electro mechanical system can’t override the mechanical system.

Blue sea have confirmed this.

Maybe your version is different. You need to get out more Nick

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Mate leave it off , if I state it so , I’m happy it’s so. This is a field I have 30 years of experience in. I have a full LIN bus based current sensing system which parallels the BMV.

I’m happy the lead acids are close to 100% SOC

Well then best of luck with your hidden cronic PSOC issue .

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

I went into the chandlery and we opened the box and tested the relay.

The manual switch locks the RBS ON or OFF. In both positions the electro mechanical system can’t override the mechanical system.

Blue sea have confirmed this.

Maybe your version is different. You need to get out more Nick

No that you have decided not to install lifepo4 this all is a moot point .

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Well then best of luck with your hidden cronic PSOC issue .

Nope no PSOC issue if you can’t get your batteries from 4:30am to 11am and replace 25-30ah within that time. You have bigger issue then me.

My previous cells recharged in the same time and I could do specific gravity tests as well definitely at 100%

Nor do I ever use AGM so no real PSOC issues and the cheap batteries €100 per 140 AH get replaced every 5 years

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by newhaul

No that you have decided not to install lifepo4 this all is a moot point .

Why it is moot. I have more commercial design experience with lithium then probably most here. I’ve used lithium in commercial projects etc

I have a full LFP install ready to go once I have insurance agreement with zero deductible

Secondly this thread was posted to illustrate RGleason proposed design , I never claimed it was mine.

The absolute nonsense debate fostered by some here trying to denigrate certain design choices is ridiculous , it’s like the stupid sea cock thread

I’m not arguing “ best “I didn’t put up RGleason diagram as “ best “ case. I put it up because in my opinion it represents a very good compromise given his original design criteria

What I regard as important are

1. Fail safe BMS contactors

2 full emergency manual override of the BMS contactor

3. Ability to switch in alternative power sources

4 . Alternator to lithium

RGleasons diagram in my opinion was a good “ compromise “ among those lines


The nonsense about BlueSeas is just that the same interminable nonsense trying to establish “ best “

As i repeatedly said , stop arguing best , of you want to use ML RBS , use it. If you accept alternative “ best “ use that too


Oh and by the way I now consulted on 4 lithium installs where I’ve recommended complete rework as I see systems installed with a little knowledge . I’m working on a redesign of one such system over the winter on a 48 footer.

So , if you’ll excuse me. I don’t believe just because “ somebody has done something “ actually shows they know what they are talking about. All they tend to do is argue their system is right to justify themselves. That’s not necessarily good engineering.

[goboatingnow]

By the way , all the claims ( and yes that includes mine ) that x and u and X are ISO ABYC compliant or NOT are of course merely everyone’s “ interpretation “ of in some cases “poorly “ constructed and vague standards documents.

In the case of ABYC as it’s non legally pre-scripted it will be boat builders and industry leaders that will largely develop “ custom and practice “ designs. And no doubt ABYC will issue updates.

In the case of the more prescriptive ISO standard. Once incorporated into the RCD , the deciding body will be the official “ notified bodies “ and how boat builders use that teccomendations.

Hence it will not be “newhaul” ,” Jedi “ or “ GBN”s opinion that counts at all.

We shall no doubt see the industry and the standards compliance bodies set down custom and practice over the next few years which will put an end to these nonsense “ angel on a pin “ debates here