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Old 16-12-2020, 09:08   #571
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Re: Alternator Size with LiFePo4

Thanks Newhaul,

Couple things first:
1. Just changing to a serpentine belt will not change the alternator output
-Yes, Alternator is 35 yr old Balmar 60-90 built with new non OEM stator so low rpm output is no good.

2. Are you bringing the engine up to operating rpm for at least 3 minutes ( to excite the alternator to put out good amps. ) before backing down to a minimum 1200 rpmon the engine ?
- yes

3.Secondly I would not recommend the dccc50 b2b from renogy -Yes NG-DCC1212-60https://www.renogy.com/12v-60a-dc-to...ttery-charger/
-yes I see from manual that distances and cable sizes are specified, also LFP settings are pretty clear. Are you using this? -Better than Sterling? Do you miss having Victron bluetooth info? Wouldn't it be good to have some Victron monitering info?

4. Use a separate solar controller.

- Which ones do you use? I like the BT of Victorn. I am thinking of (2) separate 100watt MPPT solar controllers for LFP(?) + one smaller 25-30watt for Bank #2 start/reserve. Or should I have all solar on Bank #2 and let the DC-DC controller handle the charge to LFP?

5. BTW the original 80a Hitachi Internal regulated Alternator that came with 3YM30 also has anemic low rpm output, so no use working with that! What was Yanmar Thinking? Cheap?
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Old 16-12-2020, 09:30   #572
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Re: Alternator Size with LiFePo4

1) Sounds like you just need a new alternator.
2) had to ask it is a common issue
3)none of the above i am in the late planning and acquisition phase myself .
I plan on the dccc1212-40 due to a stock 55 amp alternator ( factory reman for 25 USD)
4)I use a 30 amp fully programmable pwm solar controller. Set to 13.8v when on the boat and 13.0v when not on board.
Run your solar to the house bank only and set the controllers to LFP voltage you prefer to run at .
Let the iron wind handle the charging of the fla start bank.

As to your stock 80 amp alternator. Propulsion engines are not setup to run for hours at idle. Bet u our output is just fine at 2500 rpm or above.

Lastly I am a retired shipwright and navy engineer so I am more of a hands on type I look at actual guages no need for Bluetooth for the info.
Once its all dialed in its mostly set and forget. I would not want to dial it in using anything but the guages and the mark 1 eyeball.
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Old 16-12-2020, 11:07   #573
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Re: Alternator Size with LiFePo4

Thanks Newhaul, I like your practical approach.


Re unused Hitachi 80a alt which has been replaced with my older Balmar 60-90 with anemic low rpm output.
If I rewired that for the ARS-5 external Balmar regulator, do you think would it put out more than my old balmar?

With Balmar 60-90 I get about 35-40a (cold) for awhile at 1000 engine rpm in reverse (anchored) with a ratio of about 2:1 so that is about 2000 rpm, this is one of my current solutions for not charging fast, PSOC, always being on a mooring or anchored, and lousy old Solar panels. ---> Agreed -"Propulsion engines are not setup to run for hours at idle. Bet u our output is just fine at 2500 rpm or above." <-- Yes it is a bit better, but I can't stand powering for hours just to charge the dam batteries.

"4)I use a 30 amp fully programmable pwm solar controller. Set to 13.8v when on the boat and 13.0v when not on board."
- Suggestions for pwm and panels?


I'd much rather be at 800 rpm in reverse at anchor when charging! or just using solar perhaps.
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Old 16-12-2020, 12:16   #574
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Re: Alternator Size with LiFePo4

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
Thanks Newhaul, I like your practical approach.


Re unused Hitachi 80a alt which has been replaced with my older Balmar 60-90 with anemic low rpm output.
If I rewired that for the ARS-5 external Balmar regulator, do you think would it put out more than my old balmar?

With Balmar 60-90 I get about 35-40a (cold) for awhile at 1000 engine rpm in reverse (anchored) with a ratio of about 2:1 so that is about 2000 rpm, this is one of my current solutions for not charging fast, PSOC, always being on a mooring or anchored, and lousy old Solar panels. ---> Agreed -"Propulsion engines are not setup to run for hours at idle. Bet u our output is just fine at 2500 rpm or above." <-- Yes it is a bit better, but I can't stand powering for hours just to charge the dam batteries.

"4)I use a 30 amp fully programmable pwm solar controller. Set to 13.8v when on the boat and 13.0v when not on board."
- Suggestions for pwm and panels?


I'd much rather be at 800 rpm in reverse at anchor when charging! or just using solar perhaps.
Honestly if charging on a mooring i would just run the solar through a charge controller that will allow user setting of charging voltage set it to your preferred voltage ( I have stated my usages.) If you want to charge on the hook get a cheap 1k generator and a 50 amp battery charger hooked up to your start bank . And charging house via the b2b . Much better than the wear and tear on the main engine. ( you already carry gasoline for the dingy motor.)
Aside from the fact that 200 watts solar will do 99% of the job . I have 2 100 watt mono panels from windy nation Mounted on the pushpit.
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Old 20-12-2020, 09:08   #575
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Re: Alternator Size with LiFePo4

Newhaul it looks like about 400w of solar comfortably distributed at the end of your cockpit. You are at a dock but have no shore power?

I am trying to bring my study for using a Delco Remy 28SI #8600312 short J180 mount, to a conclusion. I was trying to set pulley diameters and found the following with respect to the 22mm shaft vs the Balmar 17mm alternator shaft which changes the smallest size of the pulley. Most 28SI pulleys are 2.35"-2.4" diameter, which changes the pulley ratio and thus the rpm, which mostly affects low rpm charging.

For Comparison:
  1. XT Alternator with Altmount Crank AM169 5.4" dia + 48-AM-107 Pulley 1.7" dia x 17mm bore. Crank 5.4" / Pulley 1.7" = 3.17 ratio. 850 eng rpm x 3.17 = 2700 rpm = XT Series 140a continuous hot
  2. Delco Remy 28SI-12v-160a with Altmount Crank 5.4" + Standard Pulley 2.4" = 2.25 ratio. 850 eng rpm x 2.25 = 1912 rpm = 28SI-12v-160a Alternator will output 110a (cold) x .8 = 88a continuous hot
  3. Delco Remy 28SI-12v-160a with Custom Crank 5.5" + Custom Pulley 2" = 2.75 ratio. 850 eng rpm x 2.75 = 2317 rpm = 28SI-12v-160a will output 130a (cold) x .8 = 104a continuous hot
The 88a / 104a output "continuous hot" is ok for my case, but for some boats the XT might be the better choice, primarily due to the restrictions caused by the Delco Remy 28SI 22mm shaft and the smallest custom diameter pulley that can be made to fit on a Delco Remy SI28.

Once the engine reaches 1000-1200 engine rpm, the differences start to disappear, however.
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Old 20-12-2020, 10:42   #576
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Re: Alternator Size with LiFePo4

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
Newhaul it looks like about 400w of solar comfortably distributed at the end of your cockpit. You are at a dock but have no shore power?

I am trying to bring my study for using a Delco Remy 28SI #8600312 short J180 mount, to a conclusion. I was trying to set pulley diameters and found the following with respect to the 22mm shaft vs the Balmar 17mm alternator shaft which changes the smallest size of the pulley. Most 28SI pulleys are 2.35"-2.4" diameter, which changes the pulley ratio and thus the rpm, which mostly affects low rpm charging.

For Comparison:
  1. XT Alternator with Altmount Crank AM169 5.4" dia + 48-AM-107 Pulley 1.7" dia x 17mm bore. Crank 5.4" / Pulley 1.7" = 3.17 ratio. 850 eng rpm x 3.17 = 2700 rpm = XT Series 140a continuous hot
  2. Delco Remy 28SI-12v-160a with Altmount Crank 5.4" + Standard Pulley 2.4" = 2.25 ratio. 850 eng rpm x 2.25 = 1912 rpm = 28SI-12v-160a Alternator will output 110a (cold) x .8 = 88a continuous hot
  3. Delco Remy 28SI-12v-160a with Custom Crank 5.5" + Custom Pulley 2" = 2.75 ratio. 850 eng rpm x 2.75 = 2317 rpm = 28SI-12v-160a will output 130a (cold) x .8 = 104a continuous hot
The 88a / 104a output "continuous hot" is ok for my case, but for some boats the XT might be the better choice, primarily due to the restrictions caused by the Delco Remy 28SI 22mm shaft and the smallest custom diameter pulley that can be made to fit on a Delco Remy SI28.

Once the engine reaches 1000-1200 engine rpm, the differences start to disappear, however.
Ok my setup is as follows ; 2. 100 watt mono solar panels mounted on the pushpit. Also have 2. 100 watt poly flex panels that I can deploy when at anchor .
A 250ah lfp bank , a 500 watt pure sine wave inverter running my domestic refrigerator,
A 750 watt modifies sine wave inverterthat runs my rice cooker.
I will have a 55 amp stock Chevy alternator with a 40 amp b2b from renogy.
A 2500 watt air cooled yanmar generator and a 50 amp battery charger .


Yes there is electricity available but I don't need it to keep my systems running. I use it to power my 24 inch lcd television . Also to charge my drill batteries .

As to your bank iirc its a 200ah lfp correct?
Remember the best longevity of the bank charging profile is optimized with a .3 to .5
So from 60amp to a top of 100amp out of the alternator. Personally if I were you I would not see a need for more than 50 amps out of it. So a 65 to 80 amp alternator would be plenty.
Remember lfp doesn't need to be nor does it actually like being fully charged.

Keep this in mind 200 watts solar puts about 75 to 80ah into the bank daily . In summer for us.
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Old 21-12-2020, 18:22   #577
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Re: Alternator Size with LiFePo4

"A 2500 watt air cooled yanmar generator and a 50 amp battery charger. "
24" x 20" x 16", 55 lbs.

https://www.yanmar.com/global/powerp...ors/ydgseries/

Unfortunately there is no room for this device.
I am thinking about possible alternator sizing:
LFP 200ah x .35C max = 70ah
FLP 215ah x .25C max = 53ah
DC Panel = 10ah
Total Max = 133ah
This would not be needed at all times, certainly not more than 20% of the time. Also one could make the argument that FLP bank could full under adequate solar, however initially I will not have that amount of solar, so the FLP bank could be actively used to extend operation time between charges.

Due to the limits of pulley sizes, it looks like the best I will get from the 160a 28SI-12v-160a at idle is about 104 amps and 160a x .7 (adjusted by belt manager)= 114a at cruising speed.

It looks like I now have a source for making the pulleys, I just have to finish the drawings.

I do believe I could get by with the Hitachi 80a rewired for external regulation but it would also limited to 80a x .7 (belt manager)= 56a (20% reduction for hot continuous operation and a 10% reduction for longevity).
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Old 21-12-2020, 21:11   #578
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Re: Alternator Size with LiFePo4

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
"A 2500 watt air cooled yanmar generator and a 50 amp battery charger. "
24" x 20" x 16", 55 lbs.

https://www.yanmar.com/global/powerp...ors/ydgseries/

Unfortunately there is no room for this device.
I am thinking about possible alternator sizing:
LFP 200ah x .35C max = 70ah
FLP 215ah x .25C max = 53ah
DC Panel = 10ah
Total Max = 133ah
This would not be needed at all times, certainly not more than 20% of the time. Also one could make the argument that FLP bank could full under adequate solar, however initially I will not have that amount of solar, so the FLP bank could be actively used to extend operation time between charges.

Due to the limits of pulley sizes, it looks like the best I will get from the 160a 28SI-12v-160a at idle is about 104 amps and 160a x .7 (adjusted by belt manager)= 114a at cruising speed.

It looks like I now have a source for making the pulleys, I just have to finish the drawings.

I do believe I could get by with the Hitachi 80a rewired for external regulation but it would also limited to 80a x .7 (belt manager)= 56a (20% reduction for hot continuous operation and a 10% reduction for longevity).
The generator was 50 bucks because it needed a new 25 dollar injection pump. It resides on the lazerette hatch . And its 55 kg unfortunately not pounds .
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Old 07-01-2021, 09:37   #579
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Re: Alternator Size with LiFePo4

Good thread on alternator heat.
https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3258563

Quote:
125 amp valeo w/ Balmar 614 set belt manager derate 100 amps output and temp limited at 100 C. ..1000 hours since settin, ..no problems.
980a of T105 6 volt batteries.
Limiter is alternator temp.

10-15 min @100a become 100 C and drop to 60 a until cools to 90 C
Then back to 100a output until 100 C and reduces output...
Over time the alt output tapers with each cycle as the bank reaches full charge.
Tom
100/125= .8 which is a 20% reduction. It appears in this case that improving heat dissipation would really help to achieve hot continuous output. The engine compartment may not have adequate vents and fans

IMO this alternator should really be derated by 70% = 20% reduction for hot continuous use (assuming reasonable fresh air flow) + 10% for longer service life to 87a = 125 x .7.

Once there is good air flow and cooling, you can set your Alt temp limit below the normal Balmar setting of 225°F (107°C)
to 100C or 90C depending on how cool your alternator runs, this will also increase longevity. See Philcun #27
Earlier he stated "installed an inline blower, no ducting, just points at the alternator to blow the hot air away from the alternator so it’s not sucked back in by the internal cooling fans. See Phiicun #13 (Perhaps not as effective as below) but he took other steps too.

Two choices fans to blow into the alternator fan or a fan blow to the outside for airlow. See Gordmay #18
If you have a keel or open hull area in the engine area, try making a duct against the hull and suck air from that to blow on the alternator, pulling cooler air from the bilge and hull heat transfer.
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Old 07-01-2021, 10:10   #580
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Re: Alternator Size with LiFePo4

For alternator charging LFP there are several critical aspects to protecting both the Alternator and the LFP.
1. Primary Level: LFP should be protected from overcharging by the BMS.
2. Secondary Level: Alternator should be protected from transient spikes caused by BMS LFP disconnection, by also always being connected to an FLA of adequate size.
3. Operational Level: Alternator should have an earlier "30 second alarm" BMS activated relay disconnection of the alternator field or brown ignition wire to terminate alternator charging.
4. Normal Operation: External Balmar 614 or Wakespeed WS500 properly programmed and connected.
(Perhaps using all of these precautions may be overekill, and one or perhaps two might be dropped)

Mainsail has provided further guidance about which alternator wires to use See Mainsail #69 which makes it clear that the brown wire should be used only on an alarm type controlled relay otherwise use the red power wire.

Quote:
If you wish to use the brown wire then the BMS needs to be able to shut down the alternator slightly ahead of the main BMS switch opening.

MC-614 B+/Red Power Wire = Instantaneous Shut Down

MC-614 Ignition/Brown Wire = Save Data Then Shut Down (not instantaneous)

MC-614 Field/Blue Wire = Never Use for BMS Shut Down
Also Mainsail writes:
Quote:

Dimitri has programmed the correct delays for shutting down via the brown wire into the Lithionics batteries. He learned why to do this well before he sold Clean Power Auto to Lithionics.

There are other BMS's that don't shut down the alternator slightly before the main contactor opens. In this scenario the MC-614 red/power wire is the best option in conjunction with another form of transient protection.
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Old 07-01-2021, 10:27   #581
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Re: Alternator Size with LiFePo4

I got some very disappointing news yesterday about the cost for some custom J10 Pulley after sending the attached SK-1 for pricing:
  • SK-1-10J200SPXX - 1 $331.000 STEEL, BLACK OXIDE, 10J SHEAVE, OD: 2.00''
  • SK-1-10J551SPXX - 1 $492.450 STEEL, BLACK OXIDE, 10J SHEAVE, OD: 5.511''
I haven't decided what to do yet, but I'm going to try to find a local shop or try to do this on my Shopsmith Lathe. If anyone has good resources for getting these pulleys made I would be interested.

(I could purchase a 5.24" dia Altmount pulley for around $350 and mount it backwards on the 3YM30 crank pulley, and then have to find or make a small 2" dia 28SI Sheave to get anywhere near the eng/alt belt ratio needed.)


I have attached the SK-1.pdf, but also have a dwg.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf SK-1-J-10-Alt-Sheaves.pdf (40.4 KB, 29 views)
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Old 07-01-2021, 10:47   #582
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Re: Alternator Size with LiFePo4

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
I got some very disappointing news yesterday about the cost for some custom J10 Pulley after sending the attached SK-1 for pricing:
  • SK-1-10J200SPXX - 1 $331.000 STEEL, BLACK OXIDE, 10J SHEAVE, OD: 2.00''
  • SK-1-10J551SPXX - 1 $492.450 STEEL, BLACK OXIDE, 10J SHEAVE, OD: 5.511''
I haven't decided what to do yet, but I'm going to try to find a local shop or try to do this on my Shopsmith Lathe. If anyone has good resources for getting these pulleys made I would be interested.

(I could purchase a 5.24" dia Altmount pulley for around $350 and mount it backwards on the 3YM30 crank pulley, and then have to find or make a small 2" dia 28SI Sheave to get anywhere near the eng/alt belt ratio needed.)


I have attached the SK-1.pdf, but also have a dwg.
Bummer. I got my K6 pulley for the 28si from MaineSail back in 2018. Wonder what he has available.

Also, My local alternator rebuilder can source various 28Si pulleys. I suspect that someone locally can help you.
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Old 07-01-2021, 11:21   #583
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Re: Alternator Size with LiFePo4

I found some threads outlining the goal.

Thread Delco SI28 160a or 200a -3YM30 - Bristol32 Post #113
Sketch to install a modified Delco SI28 160amp Short J180 mount #8600312

Following EVM1024's good thread Converting Delco 28SI to External Regulation

List of changes needed for this arrangement.

Balmar XT-DF-170-J10 mounted on Yanmar 3YM30? Post #15
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Old 07-01-2021, 11:56   #584
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Re: Alternator Size with LiFePo4

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgleason View Post
I found some threads outlining the goal.

Thread Delco SI28 160a or 200a -3YM30 - Bristol32 Post #113
Sketch to install a modified Delco SI28 160amp Short J180 mount #8600312

Following EVM1024's good thread Converting Delco 28SI to External Regulation

List of changes needed for this arrangement.

Balmar XT-DF-170-J10 mounted on Yanmar 3YM30? Post #15
My big question wrt all the alternator research is this .
You are planning a 200ah lfp bank and you have stated that with your current setup you have

[Quote Due to the limits of pulley sizes, it looks like the best I will get from the 160a 28SI-12v-160a at idle is about 104 amps and 160a x .7 (adjusted by belt manager)= 114a at cruising speed End quote]

You are already at .5C at idle . So why all of the additional research and potentially hundreds of extra dollars . Why?
Any higher than that and you are eating into the longevity of your bank.
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Old 07-01-2021, 14:07   #585
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Re: Alternator Size with LiFePo4

Quote:
Originally Posted by newhaul View Post
My big question wrt all the alternator research is this .
You are planning a 200ah lfp bank and you have stated that with your current setup you have

[Quote Due to the limits of pulley sizes, it looks like the best I will get from the 160a 28SI-12v-160a at idle is about 104 amps and 160a x .7 (adjusted by belt manager)= 114a at cruising speed End quote]

You are already at .5C at idle . So why all of the additional research and potentially hundreds of extra dollars . Why?
Any higher than that and you are eating into the longevity of your bank.
Newhaul,, A perfectly reasonable question.
  1. I did not expect the quote to be that much. I have contacted 5 prototyping and local milling shops who support digital files.
  2. I did do some adjustment to the load side expectations and realized that I am going to want some leeway in output for these loads (I may have had them a little different in the prior post):
- Charge LFP 200a x .35C = 70a
- Power DC Panel = 15a Nav, lights etc.
- Eutectic Refrigeration =10a freeze eutecticd. 10 extra

Total = 70a LFP + 15a DC Panel + 10a refrig = 95a Engine run morning and evening motoring for 0.5 to 2 hrs
I also hope to have a little extra in case my estimates are proven wrong or I decide later to get a bigger battery.
I do want good low rpm performance and may just get the Altmount 5.24" sheave.
I am trying to address the sheave cost and manufacturing before getting the alternator.
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