Are these cheap lithiums ok to use??

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by guitarrich

“Drop in” they are not. I’ve had massive issues with a Victron LifePo bank on a new build. The “service” alternator kept burning out. The so called intelligent regulator didn’t limit charging for reasons I never ascertained, but the big thing to bear in mind is that a Lithium battery has a flat charge curve. It will suck and suck at max Amps until full, causing normal alternators to simply burn out. Had to lash up a bodge whereby bowthruster agms are charged by a greatly limited alternator, and this circuit feeds a pair of buck boost dc/dc converters which trickle juice to the mighty LifePos. Bespoke Victron chargers do the ac charging via shore or generator power.
No doubt this new battery technology is vastly superior, but needs VERY careful management. I know another new build where the lithium bank literally melted down due to engineer ignorance.

Do you have also references to Lead Acid banks melted due to engineer ignorance (more often than wit lithium, because more lead acid installs out there)? Are there also burned alternators with lead acid banks (I am sure, there are)?

The problem with the alternators is, they are developed for cars, cars have a small start battery in contrast to big battery banks. If you have a 1000Ah FLA battery, it can also draw 200A or more when empty and overwhelm an 80A alternator.

Anyway, you can add a limiting device like a B2B charger or simply decrease field current to regulate the output of the alternator, or charge the lithium bank by solar, generator and AC charger.

When moving to Lithium you usually have an idea what you want to achieve, it is often not just a replacement of the existing capacity, but more often you want more power, faster charging and less voltage drop. That means you must at least rethink your gear.

If you just want to replace usable capacity by LFP, and you have a 500Ah FLA, you can drop in a 260Ah..300Ah Lithium with not much of a change.

[Cruiser]

I have just replaced my house bank with LiFePo4 batteries. I did a lot of research into the best ways to implement the technology and the best product line to use.

The simplest way to do this is use a B to B charger like Redarc or Sterling. This method solves many of the challenges faced when converting to the new technology.

I did not go this route because it greatly diminished the largest reason for me going LiFePo4.

I was tired of being a slave to the recharging time of LA batteries. I was tired of the battle between waiting for 100% SOC vs Undercharging and sulfating the batteries thus diminishing their capacity. It is real frustrating to run the generator 5 to 6 hrs and the last 3 to 4 hrs there is little to nothing going into the batteries. It is equally frustrating to spend big dollars of AGM and short cycle them to save generator hrs and in a year or so you have lost 20 to 30 percent of the banks capacity.

LiFePo4 don't share these problems. They take max current till 100% charged thus drastically reducing charge time. You can short cycle them and they actually like it better than going to 100 SOC. They dont sulfate and loose capacity like LA.

In an example comparing charge times between LA and LiFePo4 where you have a 50 amp charger and each bank is equally down 100 Ah. The LA would take 5 hrs to reach 100% SOC and the LiFePo4 would take 2hrs.

Up the charger to 100 amps and the LA charge time is maybe 4 hrs and the LiFePo4 is 1 hr. That to me is a huge advantage.

I spent one winter cruising the Bahamas and put 750 hrs on my generator just charging the battery bank.

The B to B chargers are limited to 40 amps being the largest. This to me is an unacceptable rate to charge LiFePo4 batteries. I wanted to charge at max amps and limit that dreaded charge time.

I purchased a Balmar 170 amp alternator and the 614 regulator. This setup creates several technical challenges that must be addressed. It is not as simple as the drop on B to B charger.

Here are a couple links that explain the challenges and some ways to solve them.

https://shop.pkys.com/Alternator-Lithium-Battery.html

https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

You will see that they rely on Victron batteries because they are externally managed and they make many different types of equipment that will adapt and manage the batteries for different proposing. They are however a bit more expensive.

Most drop in LiFePo4 batteries are internally managed and don't provide a communication port. This can be overcome but it takes a bit planning and understanding of your charging system.

Battleborn is a US based company that sells 100 amp batteries at a slightly cheaper price and they have support available to you. Another is Expion 360. They are based in Oregon and are owned by the Zamp family.......Zamp Solar. They offer a 120 amp battery with a removable and replaceable BMS. I like the extra 20 Ah per battery and the removable BMS.

Two of these batteries are capable of charging at 160 amps without damage to the batteries.

If you do go B to B and stay with your OEM alternator.......Carry a couple spares especially if they are Hitachi.

[Boatsie]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/phys.or...y-seawater.amp

You guys would know a lot more about this than me.
No fancy equipment here. Just an ice box and a method stove.
Radio +lights is all the batteries provide. A simple charger when the iron sail is used.

You're absolutely correct from my view. Lithium ion batteries have changed chemistry! I'm still amazed though that the older explosive with salt water batteries were often used mounted behind bums in the flood region; no conformation available.

A lot of cruising boats aren't like cars but they are like houses. My friend used to use multiple banks per reason of memory above. If you are thinking of deep cycle AGM there is the ability to easily half your bank size and double your bank. All charging whether such solar, wind, hydro, alternator or another generator can simply boost the charging bank and float that at near enough to 100% until the drawn from bank trips at its low cycle potential.
You'd know your system better than any other. Hence if you're towards switching banks prior to 100% you can get that up before she's needed.
Advantages.. An emergency bank should a one fail. An increased lifespan. Simplicity.
Cons. Set up. I'm ignorant of lifepo4. I'm sure there's more cons too.

Thanks for heads up regarding lead acid. (I think that's what we used big heavy bastards that failed short span high current loads . Were from the local oil refinery used to power an entire refinery short time during period between blackout and generator cut it. Failed that test. Last for weeks in a boat that uses lights and a few minutes every half hour listen to weather report. 😉

Note. You could always enable an audio alarm allowing you notice of a few hours prior to banks trip.. Audio if ready bank not 100%. Advantages.. Really long battery life because charging could be applied. Cons. Probably occur when needing sleep.. Aye.

[hellosailor]

If an alternator is being thermally managed, the batteries can't burn it out. IIRC most Hitachi alternators do have thermal management. Many others will throttle down as they heat up. But as the nice folks at ACDelco taught me, all you have to do is have a rebuild shop spray that nice shiny solver paint on everything when they are done--and that will cause the diodes to overheat and burn out. Good for repeat business, if you're an indy shop.
Considering that the life expectancy of diodes, and all other discrete electronic parts, literally is cut in half for every 10 degree rise in ambient temperature...do the math. From 70F "room" temperature, to 80, 90....200F if the alternator is loaded up?
Thermal management, or beefy components and expensive heat sinks and fans, will be needed for any high sustained power from any alternator. Which means money, which means it won't be a mass-market item. Folks would rather buy the shiny silver one.
Good engineering can do almost anything, but even if you teach folks what to look for, they're largely going to look for a cheaper way out.

[Boatsie]

Regardless of chosen battery type. If you treat them to their liking they purpose well.

I'm sure lifepo4 are excellent. Guessing they're light weight. No memory? Seem ideal. Do they rely on their controllers?

Advantages if you want to look at AGM or deep cycle Lead acids wouldn't be weight. But no fancy controllers to rely upon. If switch bank controller fails you have a normal full size bank. If not you should get good lifespans out of the batteries.

Best of luck brother..

[Boatsie]

https://offroadliving.com.au/blogs/a...-they-worth-it

Lifepo4 look awesome man.

You know your vessel. I haven't a clue how to tell quality of battery which is what I assume your post start question was. Best of luck.

[Boatsie]

https://www.powerstream.com/LLLF.htm

I don't understand lifepo4. They look awesome while serviceable. They are managed external of cell. Anyone lost a cell in a set yet or had management controller ship itself?

You understand AGM. If one breaks it can be removed and the journey continues as per Murphy. You know how to use them, they're already there. They're both recyclable: lifepo4, AGM.
I'm bobbing here , no brain wind now now ages.
Nothing wrong with neither battery type. Is lifepo4 fixable at sea could be worth knowing.
(Always scared too)

[Boatsie]

Anyway. Whichever way you go.

Lifepo4 like storage at 40%at 4℃. Eg. To prolong their life their is no need to keep them charged. Low potential suggests stability down to 20%. 30% then charge should keep them well condition.

AGM like to be stored at 100%. Hence the suggestion of a rotational bank control system.
A controller that allows storage at 100% or40% of other bank(s) would be ideal.

Asking if cheap? Might be cheaper to shop a controller. Then you can store a bank at a time at 100%. Storage at 100%(not just short term up then down again) would benefit AGM.

I haven't formal qualifications nor commercial interests. I was nearly complete with two university degrees of engineering electronic and electrical but asked to breach written law by a government research facility hence being a sailor and unable to point direct without a stink, I'm at 50 degrees or something. Sort of going that way.

I like both 2. Likepo4 suit days at partial charge.
AGM suit 100% holds obtainable with split banks.
Split banks suit lifepo4 too

[carlwk3c]

Originally Posted by roland stockham

"cheap" Lithium!! So it seams interesting to spend that sort of money on a cheap lithium to see if it works? to get anywhere near the lifetime cost of FLA this battery would have to last between 50 and 100yrs, are you planning to leave it to your children?
There are reasons to go lithium, particularly if you want very high discharge rates and charge rates in the 100's of amps or super light weight (ie racing) but it is, at this time, not a cost effective option for a 'normal' cruising boat so 'cheap' should not come into the equation.

I disagree. Our lithium batteries cost per AH delivered over the life of the battery works out to about 1/3 the cost of the same energy delivered by multiple sets of lead acid batteries.
Yes, the initial purchase price is higher, but we’ve doubled our usable capacitvin the same footprint at 1/3 the weight and they’ll last at least 3x longer.

[CatNewBee]

I second this. Lithium batteries are ways cheaper on the long run.

[KTP]

Originally Posted by carlwk3c

I disagree. Our lithium batteries cost per AH delivered over the life of the battery works out to about 1/3 the cost of the same energy delivered by multiple sets of lead acid batteries.
Yes, the initial purchase price is higher, but we’ve doubled our usable capacitvin the same footprint at 1/3 the weight and they’ll last at least 3x longer.

Here is the data I am looking at:

The 92AH 12.8V Trillium drawn down 80% regularly will yield 942 watt-hr per cycle and is good for about 5000 cycles (so they say).

That is a total of 4.71 megawatt-hr

The 125AH 12V Lifeline AGM drawn down 50% regularly will yield 750 watt-hr per cycle and is good for about 1000 cycles (proven)

That is a total of 0.75 megawatt-hr


The Trillium is about $800 and the Lifeline is about $400.

For the Trillium then it is $0.00017 per watt-hr over the life of the battery

And the Lifeline AGM is $0.00053 per watt-hr over the life of the battery


The Trillium is 28 pounds, waterproof IP68 rated, safety shutoff/charge,discharge limits built in (arguably safer then the AGM which isn't waterproof nor protected from discharge or overcharge)

The Lifeline is 68 pounds


Warranty right now is unknown on the Trillium, but if they give you 2 to 4 years then I don't see why anyone would continue to buy an AGM.

The elephant in the room is temperature and age. Neither battery is going to give those life cycles if used/stored in high temperature areas. A lithium solution may end up costing more than AGM if temperature kills both batteries in a year or two.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by KTP

The elephant in the room is temperature and age. Neither battery is going to give those life cycles if used/stored in high temperature areas. A lithium solution may end up costing more than AGM if temperature kills both batteries in a year or two.

hence the recommendation to not place your Lfp batteries in the engine room .

[KTP]

Originally Posted by newhaul

hence the recommendation to not place your Lfp batteries in the engine room .

I mean yeah, if you are sailing in the Puget Sound where the water temp is always around 40 to 50 F and you put your LFP batteries below the waterline near the hull (but not in the engine room) they are probably going to last like 15 or 20 years. The Puget Sound should be a great place for LFP chemistry.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by KTP

I mean yeah, if you are sailing in the Puget Sound where the water temp is always around 40 to 50 F and you put your LFP batteries below the waterline near the hull (but not in the engine room) they are probably going to last like 15 or 20 years. The Puget Sound should be a great place for LFP chemistry.

the tropics are just as good as the puget sound . Well within the specs for the Lfp battery temperature range . They just don't like the 150℉ + that you can see in the engine room .

Mainesail has a good writeup on that .

[Boatsie]

I was wrong.
Lithiums are being recycled.. (I happy)
https://www.csiro.au/en/News/News-re...cycling-charge

I found this website useful too. It is a particular comparison but the jist is there.. (Don't worry about me.. 20+ years I thought the clew was named the tack and the adjuster block that tunes the sheet was the clew until 30 minutes ago. Fuch. Sometimes in an iron sail).
So adjusting the clew includes tension as well as the pulley. Fuch. Sometimes in an iron sail.

https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2...um-ion-vs-agm/
��