Big body alternator charging LiPo4 at only 12A mystery

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by PippaB

Based on the information provided, the root alternator is a Leece-Neville/Prestolite SCJ2231.

That alternator comes factory furnished with an 8RL2132S internal regulator. Note the last three digits of the part number "132" = 13.2V.

Prestolite offers a fair number of 8RL regulators from 12.6 to 14.7V. Never having done it, I do not know if any/all would be a direct replacement on this unit. (if you are not using the spare D+ under the plastic cover then that should not matter in regulator selection, some have it, some don't).

For a bonus, the service manual is available on Archive.org. It doesn't really cover the regulator, but does show basic disassembly.

Wow! you 100% nailed that!

I will see if I can order a14.4v reg for it.

Have you ever seen one of these? do you think it would be possible to expose the voltage sensing wire?
it would be a tyrivial task to put a pot to grnd and then set the voltage with a turn of the screwdriver

The set point would be where the batteries are pulling

Alternatively I can order the 14.4v reg and use a bicycle spoke to limit current to keep the alt from exceeding 40c temp

This design is based around the lead acid starter battery allways being in circuit in case the BMS disconnects all the lipo4s

The batteries are charged by a very smart solar controller to 100%. This is a cost effective unit that can take care of preventing overcharging as lipos cannot be held at charging voltage once they reach 100%

The alternator is simply to bulk up the batteries on dark winter days. the alternator is connected to the lipos by a big red disconnect switch.

The design concept is first, achieve large constant current bulk current, second spend no more than 99euro!

This alt was on fleabay for 199euro brand new and I did have to spring 20 euro each for serpentine pulleys, but by comparison to 2000 euro for a balmar item + 600 for an automatice external charge controller, Ill just turn the red switch after the batteries reach 80% or so and let the solar charge controller take care of the rest.

Simple.

I often wonder if those that spend the big bucks not to have to think about charging also consider the shore powered charging regimen?
Thats another charge controller that needs to be lipo4 smart. Then there is the genset.
.
I presume this is why automatic water makers were invented. But really, how hard is it to turn a few valves or be aware of your battery state?

The other idea is to limit voltage at the lipo4 bank to around 13/2v or 13.3v. that way I dont even need to remember to turn off the big red switch because charging will cease when the iipo pack reaches 90%

Simple

and with the extra 2600 euros, ill get a free set of sails and good steak!

[CaptainRivet]

We are not dumm and like to spend money....so you will figure why...

Yes first thing is to get a different regulator, if you can and it fits take the 14.7V one.
What you need is a good spliting diode so you connect the LFP to one and the lead to the other. The way to go here is the victron argofet, and sorry that will cost you more then 100 bucks...cheap out here is wrong...
The victron has the lowest voltage drop of around 0.5V which brings you right away at 14.2V for the LFP (from a 14.7V reg). The lead and diode present a resistance to the alternator so it won't go flat out like with LFP and you dont get a voltage spike when the BMS cuts off the charge as alternator see diode and lead.

Set this up and get an infrared temp gun. discharged LFP to 12,4V and then start the engine and put it to 1300RPM and measure temps of alternator in the beginning all minute till you see that temp get stable...thats the point where the self cooling capacity is reached...and then all 5 minutes...till 1h run. Does the temp go up??? Above 120 degrees on the casing of the alt? If above 120A disconnect the LFP.
An IR tempgun should be on the every boat anyhow, so handy to figure out root causes of problems. Alternatively you can get this thermal usb camerasnfor the cell phone+app, i have both.
I would get a temp probe with a little display, and stick the temp probe onto the alternator case, the most front you can mount it. so you can actually monitor the alternator temp from your helmstation (thats the key and life insurance for your alternator) and switch it off manually if it gets too hot.

Most likely that big boy can handle the charge with the little derating that trick above does additionally. Mostly did it for me.
Do it and report back.
....not all are dumm and like to spent big money...but some money you have to spend...most likely 300Euro in total, cheaper this won't end well for the LFP and the alternator. Believe me done it,killed alts and LFPs...
Working with LFP since 20years and tried all ways, the above described is the cheapeast that works with a little supervising and brain from the operator...
The 2600Euro is the solution for install and forget, dumb boaters you just wanna have it work outside the box. buy,connect due to manual,job done...

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

We are not dumm and like to spend money....so you will figure why...

Yes first thing is to get a different regulator, if you can and it fits take the 14.7V one.
What you need is a good spliting diode so you connect the LFP to one and the lead to the other. The way to go here is the victron argofet, and sorry that will cost you more then 100 bucks...cheap out here is wrong...
The victron has the lowest voltage drop of around 0.5V which brings you right away at 14.2V for the LFP (from a 14.7V reg). The lead and diode present a resistance to the alternator so it won't go flat out like with LFP and you dont get a voltage spike when the BMS cuts off the charge as alternator see diode and lead.

Set this up and get an infrared temp gun. discharged LFP to 12,4V and then start the engine and put it to 1300RPM and measure temps of alternator in the beginning all minute till you see that temp get stable...thats the point where the self cooling capacity is reached...and then all 5 minutes...till 1h run. Does the temp go up??? Above 120 degrees on the casing of the alt? If above 120A disconnect the LFP.
An IR tempgun should be on the every boat anyhow, so handy to figure out root causes of problems. Alternatively you can get this thermal usb camerasnfor the cell phone+app, i have both.
I would get a temp probe with a little display, and stick the temp probe onto the alternator case, the most front you can mount it. so you can actually monitor the alternator temp from your helmstation (thats the key and life insurance for your alternator) and switch it off manually if it gets too hot.

Most likely that big boy can handle the charge with the little derating that trick above does additionally. Mostly did it for me.
Do it and report back.
....not all are dumm and like to spent big money...but some money you have to spend...most likely 300Euro in total, cheaper this won't end well for the LFP and the alternator. Believe me done it,killed alts and LFPs...
Working with LFP since 20years and tried all ways, the above described is the cheapeast that works with a little supervising and brain from the operator...
The 2600Euro is the solution for install and forget, dumb boaters you just wanna have it work outside the box. buy,connect due to manual,job done...

You make a compelling argument.

|>The victron has the lowest voltage drop of around 0.5V which brings you right away at 14.2V for the LFP (from a 14.7V reg).
Dont forget the .7v drop fr4om the 3m of cable
Now we are back at 13.5 :/

I had an old 3 way diode splitter from the 90s. It hit the trash can with aloud clang ) Thats when the neighbors bicycle lost a spoke ((

>this won't end well for the LFP
ONLY @IF@ charging voltage is applied after lipos are fully charged
The only other scenario I can see for lithium tears, is if I hit them with too much current.
Each lipo is 150a, There are 4. I figure 0.3C OCCASIONALLY on rainy days which is 45A a piece, total 180A

I cant pull that much out of this Alt even at 60c and 6000rpm. For my 99euro for this new unit from flea bay, I figure 120a continuous at about 40-50c. The engine bay cooling fan and ducting are right above the alt body.
So thats 30 per lipo, for a charge of 0.2c

Those were my original napkin estimates

Your suggestion for a temp probe is excellent idea. The infrared gun is too expensive for now. That money is needed for more essential refit items

If I can get access to the voltage sensing of the current alt regulator and manipulate it, I could potentially exceed 15v at alt terminal and thus utilize a diode based splitter.

All the sensitive comp-uters and nav electronics are isloated by a 12v DC DC Buck converter. Everything else could probably run as high as 18v without problems due to voltage drop from load and cable runs,


I am wondering if I can just order a pair of FETs from an electronic parts supplier like Digikey, Mouser or Farnell. You know that if Victron charge 100, 50 of that is dealer retail markup, 30 is Victron profit, 20 is nice looking box and assembly, 5 is the cost of the components

I dont need nice looking boxs and name brands. I need smart engineering and wise spending.

https://www.mouser.co.uk/c/semicondu...sistors/mosfet
less than 5 euro

https://www.nexperia.com/products/mo...R6-100SSF.html

https://uk.farnell.com/c/semiconduct...urrent-id=200a


BTW
Victron claim
In contrast with diode battery isolators, FET isolators have virtually no voltage loss. Voltage drop is less than 0,02 Volt at low current and averages 0,1 Volt at higher currents.
Did you measure different?

If i am going to go that route, I can also isolate charge the bow thruster battery on the end of a long cable run. So I like this idea.


I am also wondering if I can simply use whatever external regulator I can find at an alternator shop, or even remove and mount externally the one thats in it.
It can be close to the fan and in a fabricated, venitillated, protective housing.

Now my 99euro budget is only blown by about 15 euro, limiting me to one beer with the steak dinner ((

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

You make a compelling argument.

|>The victron has the lowest voltage drop of around 0.5V which brings you right away at 14.2V for the LFP (from a 14.7V reg).
Dont forget the .7v drop fr4om the 3m of cable
Now we are back at 13.5 :/

I had an old 3 way diode splitter from the 90s. It hit the trash can with aloud clang ) Thats when the neighbors bicycle lost a spoke ((

>this won't end well for the LFP
ONLY @IF@ charging voltage is applied after lipos are fully charged
The only other scenario I can see for lithium tears, is if I hit them with too much current.
Each lipo is 150a, There are 4. I figure 0.3C OCCASIONALLY on rainy days which is 45A a piece, total 180A

I cant pull that much out of this Alt even at 60c and 6000rpm. For my 99euro for this new unit from flea bay, I figure 120a continuous at about 40-50c. The engine bay cooling fan and ducting are right above the alt body.
So thats 30 per lipo, for a charge of 0.2c

Those were my original napkin estimates

Your suggestion for a temp probe is excellent idea. The infrared gun is too expensive for now. That money is needed for more essential refit items

If I can get access to the voltage sensing of the current alt regulator and manipulate it, I could potentially exceed 15v at alt terminal and thus utilize a diode based splitter.

All the sensitive comp-uters and nav electronics are isloated by a 12v DC DC Buck converter. Everything else could probably run as high as 18v without problems due to voltage drop from load and cable runs,


I am wondering if I can just order a pair of FETs from an electronic parts supplier like Digikey, Mouser or Farnell. You know that if Victron charge 100, 50 of that is dealer retail markup, 30 is Victron profit, 20 is nice looking box and assembly, 5 is the cost of the components

I dont need nice looking boxs and name brands. I need smart engineering and wise spending.

https://www.mouser.co.uk/c/semicondu...sistors/mosfet
less than 5 euro

https://www.nexperia.com/products/mo...R6-100SSF.html

https://uk.farnell.com/c/semiconduct...urrent-id=200a


BTW
Victron claim
In contrast with diode battery isolators, FET isolators have virtually no voltage loss. Voltage drop is less than 0,02 Volt at low current and averages 0,1 Volt at higher currents.
Did you measure different?

If i am going to go that route, I can also isolate charge the bow thruster battery on the end of a long cable run. So I like this idea.


I am also wondering if I can simply use whatever external regulator I can find at an alternator shop, or even remove and mount externally the one thats in it.
It can be close to the fan and in a fabricated, venitillated, protective housing.


Now my 99euro budget is only blown by about 15 euro, limiting me to one beer with the steak dinner ((

This big boy can most likely deliver close to 160A its rated for as the big case gives them a lot self cooling, definitely in the 120A region, where exactly this point is i described above how you can figure this out. If you mount the regulator externally thats the 2nd biggest heat source then it has even more self cooling capacity=less loss due to heat=less heating up=more current.
You can easily run the alternator at 80 till 90 degrees case temp, if you wanna squezze max out for 20% short lifespan go to 110 degress celcius.
The stator winding lacquer can withstand 140 degrees and that whats critical as 110case means
around 140 degrees at the stator.

Regarding the argofet i made a mistake, was late at night here....you should use it because it has the lowest voltage drop, i measured around 0.15V at 150A on a 3/200A argofet. Other splitting diodes have >0.5v more voltage drop. Look to get it used, they sell over here via ebay or Kleinazeigen or craigslist for around 50 till 70Euro used. If you know how to make that yourself, sure you can buy parts, solder it together, glue it on heat sink and then seal all in epoxy. To safe 30Euro over used one my time and nerves is more worth and a Victron 3/200A is just a fool-proof device.

You can overcharge your LFP easily with 3,45V and float it to death over hours with low current, there are many ways to kill it.
My IR Tempgun was 20 bucks at the local supermarket...

How do yo get 0.7V voltage drop on 3m cable run (one way so its 6m)? Thats a sign its too small for the current you draw over it...or bad crimps/corroded contacts...
Simply run an exact same cable with exact same length parallel to the existing (or a new 120sqmm2) and you get 0.35V...
And you are back to the 0.5V drop i am familiar with (cable+argofet 0.5V).

I would just put that setup together and run +measure, most likely works well.

[Stu Jackson]

Converting a Leece Neville Alternator to External Regulation by Maine Sail
http://c34.org/bbs/index.php/topic,4879.0.html


Don't know if it covers your model.


This article is also on his marinehowto.com website.

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

This big boy can most likely deliver close to 160A its rated for as the big case gives them a lot self cooling, definitely in the 120A region, where exactly this point is i described above how you can figure this out. If you mount the regulator externally thats the 2nd biggest heat source then it has even more self cooling capacity=less loss due to heat=less heating up=more current.
You can easily run the alternator at 80 till 90 degrees case temp, if you wanna squezze max out for 20% short lifespan go to 110 degress celcius.
The stator winding lacquer can withstand 140 degrees and that whats critical as 110case means
around 140 degrees at the stator.

Regarding the argofet i made a mistake, was late at night here....you should use it because it has the lowest voltage drop, i measured around 0.15V at 150A on a 3/200A argofet. Other splitting diodes have >0.5v more voltage drop. Look to get it used, they sell over here via ebay or Kleinazeigen or craigslist for around 50 till 70Euro used. If you know how to make that yourself, sure you can buy parts, solder it together, glue it on heat sink and then seal all in epoxy. To safe 30Euro over used one my time and nerves is more worth and a Victron 3/200A is just a fool-proof device.

You can overcharge your LFP easily with 3,45V and float it to death over hours with low current, there are many ways to kill it.
My IR Tempgun was 20 bucks at the local supermarket...

How do yo get 0.7V voltage drop on 3m cable run (one way so its 6m)? Thats a sign its too small for the current you draw over it...or bad crimps/corroded contacts...
Simply run an exact same cable with exact same length parallel to the existing (or a new 120sqmm2) and you get 0.35V...
And you are back to the 0.5V drop i am familiar with (cable+argofet 0.5V).

I would just put that setup together and run +measure, most likely works well.

You make good points as usual )

COuld you help me find a part number for the 14.5 and 14.7v regulator

The local parts store found

8RL2132S

but could not find 14.x versions
https://www.peivinlookup.com/Category/8RL2147S/

[Dan Kimblad]

My yacht is equipped with a Yanmar 4JH5E modified with a water-cooled alternator charging a 540Ah LFP bank.
Normally 225A continuously at 1400rpm and the temperature is 42°C 107°F inside the alternator.
Idling I charge100A att 680rpm.
The field is supply by a Balmar MC-618 and a Balmar shunt with blue tooth. It could be a Wakespeed or any other regulator, but I tried Balmar first. Internal regulator Is removed.
A temp sensor is attached inside the alternator that give feedback to the Balmar regulator.
3 thick cables of 25 mm² or 3 AWG is connected to the stator inside the alternator, connected to an external water cooled rectifier of 300A. Alternator is galvanic isolated from the engine. Huge benefit if you have a steel ship.
Why don’t I use the internal rectifier? Its to week for this hi amp. I have burned so many rectifiers. The alternator is specified for 190A but that’s not for continues work. Very seldom an alternator can produce continuously what they are specified, especially at lower rpm. Why?
The internal fan needs a high speed to cool down the internal heat. The efficiency is only 50% this means a significant amount of heat must disappear somewhere.
When I charge 225A at 14 volts, its 3000 watts of heat inside the alternator. To cool down this by air is not simple.
Any disadvantage for this kind of solution?
Need to understand everything how it works, not only about electric also plumping!
Spent so many hours to solve the circulation without having air in the system. Air in the system ruin the alternator.
Kimpower РGeneratorer f̦r b̴tar

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

My IR Tempgun was 20 bucks at the local supermarket

Hmmm... confusion! I can't find an IR CAMERA below about $150, but an IR GUN is certainly in the $20 range. I have a couple IR guns, very useful. But I've been dreaming of a camera.....Just can't see the use adding up the price (and then a place to store it...LOL)

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by Dan Kimblad

My yacht is equipped with a Yanmar 4JH5E modified with a water-cooled alternator charging a 540Ah LFP bank.
Normally 225A continuously at 1400rpm and the temperature is 42°C 107°F inside the alternator.
Idling I charge100A att 680rpm.
The field is supply by a Balmar MC-618 and a Balmar shunt with blue tooth. It could be a Wakespeed or any other regulator, but I tried Balmar first. Internal regulator Is removed.
A temp sensor is attached inside the alternator that give feedback to the Balmar regulator.
3 thick cables of 25 mm² or 3 AWG is connected to the stator inside the alternator, connected to an external water cooled rectifier of 300A. Alternator is galvanic isolated from the engine. Huge benefit if you have a steel ship.
Why don’t I use the internal rectifier? Its to week for this hi amp. I have burned so many rectifiers. The alternator is specified for 190A but that’s not for continues work. Very seldom an alternator can produce continuously what they are specified, especially at lower rpm. Why?
The internal fan needs a high speed to cool down the internal heat. The efficiency is only 50% this means a significant amount of heat must disappear somewhere.
When I charge 225A at 14 volts, its 3000 watts of heat inside the alternator. To cool down this by air is not simple.
Any disadvantage for this kind of solution?
Need to understand everything how it works, not only about electric also plumping!
Spent so many hours to solve the circulation without having air in the system. Air in the system ruin the alternator.
Kimpower РGeneratorer f̦r b̴tar

Those are good numbers
What is the total cost of your system?

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

This big boy can most likely deliver close to 160A its rated for as the big case gives them a lot self cooling, definitely in the 120A region, where exactly this point is i described above how you can figure this out. If you mount the regulator externally thats the 2nd biggest heat source then it has even more self cooling capacity=less loss due to heat=less heating up=more current.
You can easily run the alternator at 80 till 90 degrees case temp, if you wanna squezze max out for 20% short lifespan go to 110 degress celcius.
The stator winding lacquer can withstand 140 degrees and that whats critical as 110case means
around 140 degrees at the stator.

Regarding the argofet i made a mistake, was late at night here....you should use it because it has the lowest voltage drop, i measured around 0.15V at 150A on a 3/200A argofet. Other splitting diodes have >0.5v more voltage drop. Look to get it used, they sell over here via ebay or Kleinazeigen or craigslist for around 50 till 70Euro used. If you know how to make that yourself, sure you can buy parts, solder it together, glue it on heat sink and then seal all in epoxy. To safe 30Euro over used one my time and nerves is more worth and a Victron 3/200A is just a fool-proof device.

You can overcharge your LFP easily with 3,45V and float it to death over hours with low current, there are many ways to kill it.
My IR Tempgun was 20 bucks at the local supermarket...

How do yo get 0.7V voltage drop on 3m cable run (one way so its 6m)? Thats a sign its too small for the current you draw over it...or bad crimps/corroded contacts...
Simply run an exact same cable with exact same length parallel to the existing (or a new 120sqmm2) and you get 0.35V...
And you are back to the 0.5V drop i am familiar with (cable+argofet 0.5V).

I would just put that setup together and run +measure, most likely works well.

https://www.svb24.com/en/mastervolt-...regulator.html

This is a reasonable price

Is this alt neg excitation? N Type

The warning light is connected to pos feed so im guessing P type

[PippaB]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

You make good points as usual )

COuld you help me find a part number for the 14.5 and 14.7v regulator

The local parts store found

8RL2132S

but could not find 14.x versions
https://www.peivinlookup.com/Category/8RL2147S/

13.5 V 8RL2135S

14.4V 8RL2144MPS The MPS has a few extra connections, I am not sure of fit or function.

The 14.7 (8RL2147S) says is used on a 72V alternator, so not sure how/where that falls into the family.

If you use the Prestolite website they have a complete BOM and where used section. Looking at the stator part number for the 2231 you can follow that to where used. Do the same thing with the 14.4 regulator and you can see that both the 13.2 and 14.4 regulators get connected to the same stator part number. There is also a common rotor between the 2231 and the 2261 (the 61 uses the 14.4 regulator), so the odds are pretty good you could swap in the 14.4 for the 13.2. But the wiring (from the pictures) is slightly different, so do not know what would be involved. Also terminals on the back of the 14.4 might not fit with the housing on the 2231.

[kubota]

there is a circuit with one transistor and and a pot called a Vbe spreader.
look it up.
it will give you a constant voltage drop regardless of current.
can be built exceeding small in place inside alternator with lugs. .
the pot can go external. dial it to 1volt and now your internal regulator will charge to 14.2.
still not 3 stage, but at least a higher output taper.
this circuit will carry full alternator current so
use a large wattage (10watt or better)
to220 transistor.
it is slightly temp sensitive so watch for voltage drift if it gets hot.

there are better ways to do this but none with one transistor and a pot for $5.
got people across the atlantic in an emergency with these.

i understand budget kluges. good luck.
with lead acid i am confident with this approach as temp induced output volt drift isnt a big concern. with lithium, i have no experience using a dimb regulator so be careful. at least choose a quiescent point low and let it drift up to 14.2 on its own as alt case heats.

if you sell some extra bigmacs, that alternator can easily be converted to external reg using one wire without removing internal reg.

good luck.
from a fellow former McD employee

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

.....

Is this alt neg excitation? N Type

The warning light is connected to pos feed so im guessing P type

Bad guess

The warning light is always connected to the pos feed regardless of whether the alternator is P or N type of field excitation.

The job of the warning light is to tell you the alternator is outputting a similar voltage as the battery voltage so it is always positive.

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Bad guess

The warning light is always connected to the pos feed regardless of whether the alternator is P or N type of field excitation.

The job of the warning light is to tell you the alternator is outputting a similar voltage as the battery voltage so it is always positive.

I never understand answers like this. You do not say if its P or N type and you do not say how to tell...
Was the purpose of this answer just to tell me my guess was wrong?

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by kubota

there is a circuit with one transistor and and a pot called a Vbe spreader.
look it up.
it will give you a constant voltage drop regardless of current.
can be built exceeding small in place inside alternator with lugs. .
the pot can go external. dial it to 1volt and now your internal regulator will charge to 14.2.
still not 3 stage, but at least a higher output taper.
this circuit will carry full alternator current so
use a large wattage (10watt or better)
to220 transistor.
it is slightly temp sensitive so watch for voltage drift if it gets hot.

there are better ways to do this but none with one transistor and a pot for $5.
got people across the atlantic in an emergency with these.

i understand budget kluges. good luck.
with lead acid i am confident with this approach as temp induced output volt drift isnt a big concern. with lithium, i have no experience using a dimb regulator so be careful. at least choose a quiescent point low and let it drift up to 14.2 on its own as alt case heats.

if you sell some extra bigmacs, that alternator can easily be converted to external reg using one wire without removing internal reg.

good luck.
from a fellow former McD employee

Thank you for that! very intersting leads

The main function of the Vbe Multiplier is as a Shunt Voltage Regulator. It tries to keep a constant DC voltage across the following stages two inputs. Not necessarily maintaining ClassA


Im trying to find a circuit diagram to see how i would connect this to the two connections the voltage regulator uses




http://osinskiartur.pl/img/PRESTOLIT...231_wiring.jpg

Why are images so difficult on this forum ???

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Obh_PIC2qqo