Big body alternator charging LiPo4 at only 12A mystery

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

I never understand answers like this. You do not say if its P or N type and you do not say how to tell...
Was the purpose of this answer just to tell me my guess was wrong?

I don't know if your alternator is a P type or a N type. While I could work it out if I had the alternator for an hour, I can't easily explain how you could do the same. Thus I made no comment regarding the type.

However I do know that you can't determine the type by the warning light and I explained why. So yeah, it was a bad guess.

I'm sorry that didn't help you as much as you would have liked.

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by PippaB

13.5 V 8RL2135S

14.4V 8RL2144MPS The MPS has a few extra connections, I am not sure of fit or function.

The 14.7 (8RL2147S) says is used on a 72V alternator, so not sure how/where that falls into the family.

If you use the Prestolite website they have a complete BOM and where used section. Looking at the stator part number for the 2231 you can follow that to where used. Do the same thing with the 14.4 regulator and you can see that both the 13.2 and 14.4 regulators get connected to the same stator part number. There is also a common rotor between the 2231 and the 2261 (the 61 uses the 14.4 regulator), so the odds are pretty good you could swap in the 14.4 for the 13.2. But the wiring (from the pictures) is slightly different, so do not know what would be involved. Also terminals on the back of the 14.4 might not fit with the housing on the 2231.

You have swayed me towards an external regulator
I can pick up a new Mastervolt alpha pro 2 for about 200usd
BUT
I am not sure if this will work with this alternator
The Alpha Pro is for P type Alts. Im not clear if mine is P type?

http://osinskiartur.pl/img/PRESTOLIT...231_wiring.jpg

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by Wotname

I don't know if your alternator is a P type or a N type. While I could work it out if I had the alternator for an hour, I can't easily explain how you could do the same. Thus I made no comment regarding the type.

However I do know that you can't determine the type by the warning light and I explained why. So yeah, it was a bad guess.

I'm sorry that didn't help you as much as you would have liked.

OK thx for the explanation

None of the websites tell me the 2 criticial pieces of information I need
- P or N type
- Output voltage of the regulator

If it wasnt for the detective work done on this thread, I would not know it was 13.4v

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

OK thx for the explanation

None of the websites tell me the 2 criticial pieces of information I need
- P or N type
- Output voltage of the regulator

If it wasnt for the detective work done on this thread, I would not know it was 13.4v

P vs N type is relatively easy to figure out with a DMM. Check the resistance between the field connector and the positive terminal. If it shows a low resistance, you have an N-Type alternator. If it shows a high resistance you have a P type.

Basically, to go full field on an N type, you connect it to Negative, to go full field on a P-Type you go to positive.

And if you order the wrong one, you take it to your local alternator shop and they swap it for $50. I paid $150 total to have an alternator rebuilt and converted to external regulation. One of the questions they asked me was whether I b wanted it positive or negative.

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by hjohnson

P vs N type is relatively easy to figure out with a DMM. Check the resistance between the field connector and the positive terminal. If it shows a low resistance, you have an N-Type alternator. If it shows a high resistance you have a P type.

Basically, to go full field on an N type, you connect it to Negative, to go full field on a P-Type you go to positive.

And if you order the wrong one, you take it to your local alternator shop and they swap it for $50. I paid $150 total to have an alternator rebuilt and converted to external regulation. One of the questions they asked me was whether I b wanted it positive or negative.

Ok thx
Could you give some numbers to low and high resistance please )
are we talking 4ohms vs 10kohms?

And how do i figure out which wire is which from the internal regulator?

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

Ok thx
Could you give some numbers to low and high resistance please )
are we talking 4ohms vs 10kohms?

And how do i figure out which wire is which from the internal regulator?

So if you are using an external regulator (Balmar, Wakespeed, or that new one) you will need an alternator with no internal regulator (or the regulator bypassed). The field connection will come out on the T shaped connector on the rear of the alternator.

My alternator is isolated ground, so there’s the main + and - terminal bolts on the alternator, plus the field connector and wire connected to one of the stator coils for RPM detection. The latter is used by my Wakespeed to adjust the charge curve based on engine rpm, and also put the RPM out onto my N2K network. It’s also used on some engines to drive the tachometer.

As far as the resistances go it will be ohms vs open circuit.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

None of the websites tell me the 2 criticial pieces of information I need
- P or N type

A very good reference source is "The 12V Alternator Handbook" [may be the 12V Doctors Alternator Handbook or Alternator Handbook Spa Creek] which is available for free on the internet as a PDF download. It explains everything you need to know.

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

A very good reference source is "The 12V Alternator Handbook" [may be the 12V Doctors Alternator Handbook or Alternator Handbook Spa Creek] which is available for free on the internet as a PDF download. It explains everything you need to know.

Prestolite confirm
This is a P style regulator with the Green wire being the Field terminal

[Wotname]

Are you aware that to you will need to remove or al least by pass the internal regulator and extend the field wire (green?) to the outside of the case?

The link to the service manual in post #15 gives enough detail and shows how to remove the internal regulator .

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Are you aware that to you will need to remove or al least by pass the internal regulator and extend the field wire (green?) to the outside of the case?

The link to the service manual in post #15 gives enough detail and shows how to remove the internal regulator .

yes of course )

The service manual shows 4 wires connecting the regulator to the body
I am trying to determine what each one is for

The bigger problem is finding a USB adaptor for programming this external regulator

[GreenHeaven]

Added

I have determined that the internal regulator has four wires
Green - Field
Red - B+
Black - B-
Orange - D+

I assume the field windings are between Green and Red?

what is D+?

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

Added

I have determined that the internal regulator has four wires
Green - Field
Red - B+
Black - B-
Orange - D+

I assume the field windings are between Green and Red?

what is D+?

Using the schematic shown in post #30 I would assume the internal regulator uses

Red - B+ i.e. positive 12V supply to power the regulator

Black - B- i.e negative side of the circuit.

Green - Field variable positive i.e. goes to the positive side of the rotor with the other side of the rotor going to the negative case (B-). The regulator will pulse the rotor with positive volts on the green wire which will pulse the current flowing through the rotor. Put another way, the green wire controls the current flow (i.e. field current) through the rotor. In essence, the green wire is P connection for the field (rotor).

D+ - goes to the warning light and most likely also provides the initial field excitation (current) until the alternator rpm is sufficient for an output on the B+ at which point the alternator becomes self exciting.

On many (but not all) alternators, D+ is the same as the L or I or E terminals. Confusing isn't it.

As an aside - D stands for dynamo (or generator) and D+ was the positive supply to the field winding (which is the stationary winding on a generator). The negative side of the field was D-. Generators were often positively grounded but could also be negatively grounded. It was simple job which only took seconds to change from one to the other and they were always self exciting (i.e. did not any initial external current in the field to create an output. Simple in the extreme but could only supply low output current and maintenance intensive.

For more confusing terms but nevertheless helpful see https://shop.pkys.com/Alternator-Ter...explained.html

[Dan Kimblad]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

Those are good numbers
What is the total cost of your system?

A complete kit for Yanmar 4JH5E
Rebuilt to double belt, one for the water pump and one for the alternator with two extra pulley for better traction and enclosure and no rubber dust.
Pulley on the flywheel for a super standard belt that’s included and one spare.
Heat exchanger, 300Amp water cooled rectifier.
Brusch less pump. Expansion tank. Hoses , brackets, cable tangle for pump and alternator.
Generically Hitachi alternator with 3 phase cable 25mm² 3AWG length 3 feet
I can sent a complete list of everything.
1.790€ 1.945$

It’s no regulator inside the alternator. You must add up a regulator and some wood screw and cable ties.

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Using the schematic shown in post #30 I would assume the internal regulator uses

Red - B+ i.e. positive 12V supply to power the regulator

Black - B- i.e negative side of the circuit.

Green - Field variable positive i.e. goes to the positive side of the rotor with the other side of the rotor going to the negative case (B-). The regulator will pulse the rotor with positive volts on the green wire which will pulse the current flowing through the rotor. Put another way, the green wire controls the current flow (i.e. field current) through the rotor. In essence, the green wire is P connection for the field (rotor).

D+ - goes to the warning light and most likely also provides the initial field excitation (current) until the alternator rpm is sufficient for an output on the B+ at which point the alternator becomes self exciting.

On many (but not all) alternators, D+ is the same as the L or I or E terminals. Confusing isn't it.

As an aside - D stands for dynamo (or generator) and D+ was the positive supply to the field winding (which is the stationary winding on a generator). The negative side of the field was D-. Generators were often positively grounded but could also be negatively grounded. It was simple job which only took seconds to change from one to the other and they were always self exciting (i.e. did not any initial external current in the field to create an output. Simple in the extreme but could only supply low output current and maintenance intensive.

For more confusing terms but nevertheless helpful see https://shop.pkys.com/Alternator-Ter...explained.html

Thank you for that. Great explanation.
I now understand all the connections but
im a little confused about the wiring of the external reg
Specifically, the warning light for initial excitation

Im assuming that the internal regulator is a dumb device that requires the initial current flow from the warning light to create the initial excitation
and the alpha pro is a smart device that doesnt?

It just creates a small initial current to excite when it is programmed to turn on the alt?

I assume this because the manual warns"

If the engine is not running switch “S1”
must be open, otherwise the field
windings of the alternator will be
damaged due to overheating.

Page 12


Alpha Pro 2 wiring diag on page 13 here
http://productimageserver.com/litera...al/69995OM.pdf

In which case the D+ wire on the reg plug can be just left unconnected, and I can wire the warning light straight to the Alpha Pro?

Also, since the Alpha pro is connected to battery B+, I can leave the internal reg plug B+ wire unconnected also

Similarly, since the B- neg is connected to the alt body, I assume it is also connected to the field winding without the internal reg plugged in, so I can leave that plug wire disconnected also

The only wire I need to connect to the 4 wire internal reg plug is the green field wire

[GreenHeaven]

Added

The Alpha pro expects B+ to be connected to the other side of the field windings not B-
This is low side regulation

The wiring diagram here
http://osinskiartur.pl/Produkt/Alter...EVILLE/SCJ2231
http://osinskiartur.pl/img/PRESTOLIT...231_wiring.jpg


Shows the other side of the field windings connected to D+, not B+

Im confused. I thought D+ was warning light only?

I also dont get why this alt has 2 D+ terminals shown