Big body alternator charging LiPo4 at only 12A mystery

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

Added

The Alpha pro expects B+ to be connected to the other side of the field windings not B-
This is low side regulation

The wiring diagram here
SCJ2231 | PRESTOLITE LEECE NEVILLE | ALTERNATOR 12V 160 AMP CLAAS
http://osinskiartur.pl/img/PRESTOLIT...231_wiring.jpg


Shows the other side of the field windings connected to D+, not B+

Im confused. I thought D+ was warning light only?

I also dont get why this alt has 2 D+ terminals shown

Special mastervolt alternator for volvo that has 2 D+. You are using a proprietary external alt reg for their alternators, so some things are different and not well documented.
Shity one, sorry saved on the wrong spot...throwed the same one out at my buddy boat last year even it was combined with their own 90A mastervolt alt as not working properly.
If your alternator has an internal regulator that also has temp regulation best to use is nordkyn VSR200, you don't need to modify it as VSR200 manuplates it via sense wire. If its missing best way to go is Balmar 614 with external temp probe.

Why didn't you simply switch the reg to 14.4 or .7? Or if you know sense wire you can easily fool it and use it with the argofet. Most likely you don't need external reg....for 160A that case is huge.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Dan Kimblad

A complete kit for Yanmar 4JH5E
Rebuilt to double belt, one for the water pump and one for the alternator with two extra pulley for better traction and enclosure and no rubber dust.
Pulley on the flywheel for a super standard belt that’s included and one spare.
Heat exchanger, 300Amp water cooled rectifier.
Brusch less pump. Expansion tank. Hoses , brackets, cable tangle for pump and alternator.
Generically Hitachi alternator with 3 phase cable 25mm² 3AWG length 3 feet
I can sent a complete list of everything.
1.790€ 1.945$

It’s no regulator inside the alternator. You must add up a regulator and some wood screw and cable ties.

Dan, do you have the same kit for Volvo D2-50F, already serpentine belt? Was looking for a big boy like that at a reasonable price. Overpowered cat so i have 20hp spare which i could use for a big alt like that. Assume on 2nd alt
poistion as it most likely won't fit in orginal mounting location.

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Special mastervolt alternator for volvo that has 2 D+. You are using a proprietary external alt reg for their alternators, so some things are different and not well documented.
Shity one, sorry saved on the wrong spot...throwed the same one out at my buddy boat last year even it was combined with their own 90A mastervolt alt as not working properly.
If your alternator has an internal regulator that also has temp regulation best to use is nordkyn VSR200, you don't need to modify it as VSR200 manuplates it via sense wire. If its missing best way to go is Balmar 614 with external temp probe.

Why didn't you simply switch the reg to 14.4 or .7? Or if you know sense wire you can easily fool it and use it with the argofet. Most likely you don't need external reg....for 160A that case is huge.

If I had to do all over again knowing what I know NOW, I may have made different choices when those options were open to me. There is no 14.4v version of this reg available

NOW. I have this alt and the mastervolt Alpha Pro 2.
The Alt is P type, the Reg Is N type

Just trying to figure out the best way to hook them together

[Hope123]

Don't you think alternator’s output can be affected by speed or engine? What you will do then to prevent it from affect?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

If I had to do all over again knowing what I know NOW, I may have made different choices when those options were open to me. There is no 14.4v version of this reg available

NOW. I have this alt and the mastervolt Alpha Pro 2.
The Alt is P type, the Reg Is N type

Just trying to figure out the best way to hook them together

Well you are riding a dead horse and already figuring out why its not that easy and we are not dumb.
If you sort that your next issue will be gearing ratio and pullies as well as black rubber dust aka belt slipage...

Dan's offer above for under 2k a complete 300A alternator kit is a bargain.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Hope123

Don't you think alternator’s output can be affected by speed or engine? What you will do then to prevent it from affect?

Well its a big case with only 160A rating, high rpm is never an issue unless gearing ratio is wrong...low rpm motorsailing with 1300-1500 is the area where most fry their alternator.
i already told him the low rpm is the issue and how he can figure this out and solve. Don't think much of an issue as the big boy has a lot self cooling capabilities for 160A

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Well you are riding a dead horse and already figuring out why its not that easy and we are not dumb.
If you sort that your next issue will be gearing ratio and pullies as well as black rubber dust aka belt slipage...
Dan's offer above for under 2k a complete 300A alternator kit is a bargain.

Dumb? You put a lot of words in mouth there ...
It is easy, it just takes knowledge

2k is an insane amount of money for a charging system for a boat imo unless you have some monster bank in a canal boat

I have a 6pk belt. NO SLIPPAGE. No mess
good for 10hp at least

The alt is now putting out 14.4v
thanks for all the comment that led to a solution
If I could post pics here I would detail this upgrade but not possible on this forum ...

If you look at the performance curve of this alt on the link to the unit, you will notice output rises nearly vertically from
1000rpm to 3000rpm full output
My alt pully is ~2in, crank pully ~4in so I am at full output at 1500 rpm by design and my engine max of 3000 does not exceed alt design. Most real world use is around on anchor is 1200 - 1500
In other words engine speed is not an issue

The alt has green and yellow wires going to the brushes. The green is Field. The yellow was tied to B-
snipped both wires. heat shrink over ends
ground a little off the back of the cover plate to permit new wires to enter, and also brought snipped ends out
soldered new wires to slide on connectors, brought them both out of the alt to the Alpha pro. one B+, one field
The alpha pro is low side regulation or Ntype. The alt was Ptype regulation.

obviously it makes no difference which way current flows through the rotor windings

Alpha pro takes about 5 seconds after key on to provide current to field presumably to give time to crank and start engine
senses voltage through the brown activate wire so its possible to connect to the lipo bank to get 14.4at the bank but there will be 15v or higher at other accessories. I need to measure voltage at each accessory and understand what if any effect this may have.

Alt barely gets warm after an hour. 160A externally regulated for 300 euro
+ oem serpentine belt pulleys (40euro) and making a few brackets.

[CaptainRivet]

Sure uou can post fotos, add addedum and browse for the pics, upload and close the window.

How can you have 14,4V at the bank and 15V at the accessory?
assesory don't deliver power so something is definitely wrong here and you should figure out why. 12V equipemnt all survives 15,8V as limit, thats not the issue.

Does the regulator work, so if you dail down the voltage does that work?
If you cut sense wire, what do you have as surge protection?
How many current ouput do you get at idle, at 1300/1500 /1800 with the bank at 3,1V per cell means 12,4V of the LFP in reality, not according to datasheet curve. Hard to imagine its only handwarm going at 1500rpm full output of 140-160A, thats the critical spot 1300 to 1500RPM so 2600 till 3000 atbthe alt. Handwarm means maybe 80A load and sure nothing slips there.

A 6rip serptine belt is good for about 150A max, so if you get splipage depends on the load on the alternator...if its delivering only 80A then you won't get slipage but at 140A you will if not everything is perfect.

So you have a 2:1 gearing ratio and the alt is a truck type means full output at only 3000 means you should change gearing ratio to 3:1 as all provider from large case high rpm alternator do. You get full output already at 1000RPM engine.
The low rpm school bus type delivers full at 1500rpm, that you gear 2:1.

A real 12V 300A delvering only the alternator alone is normally above 2k as thats effectivly a 400-450A alt monster. Dan is offering a whole approve and working kit inkl. All with it. So thats a bargain.
A 120-140a alt for my volvo incl. Regulation and all in costs 1500Euro so if i can get for 2k a 300A i go with that as the 20-30min the engine runs when going in/out of anchor spot delivers my full daily usage. I have 2x50hp instead 2x20hp so i easly have 10hp spare at all conditions.
I move the original 115A mitzi to the other engine, so 2x115A or real 2x80A and put the 300A alt on the other.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

\How can you have 14,4V at the bank and 15V at the accessory?
assesory don't deliver power so something is definitely wrong here and you should figure out why. 12V equipemnt all survives 15,8V as limit, thats not the issue.

If the battery is charging heavily, it will likely be the lowest voltage on the boat.
The alternator will be the highest.
If your charge sources and load sources are both on the protected side of the fuse(s) and battery switch, that connection will be as some point between battery voltage and alternator voltage.
I'll agree, 0.6V is a bit high -- but that's about 4% to put it in ABYC voltage drop perspective. A long battery cable, an older battery switch, some less-than-ideal connections, and I'd believe it.
It makes me want to pull down my battery, load up my alts, and do some test measurements!

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

If the battery is charging heavily, it will likely be the lowest voltage on the boat.
The alternator will be the highest.
If your charge sources and load sources are both on the protected side of the fuse(s) and battery switch, that connection will be as some point between battery voltage and alternator voltage.
I'll agree, 0.6V is a bit high -- but that's about 4% to put it in ABYC voltage drop perspective. A long battery cable, an older battery switch, some less-than-ideal connections, and I'd believe it.
It makes me want to pull down my battery, load up my alts, and do some test measurements!

He states alt deliverin 14,4V but he has 15V at accessories.
So to have 15V at assesory with voltage drop on cable too the alt must deliver 15,4V ish and the battery bank he maeasures 14.4V.
With LFP thats a huge voltage drop of 1V and something definitly wrong.
And 14,4V means LFP is completely full so charge should be cut off otherwise you float with 15 or 15,4V and overcharge your LFP to death.
With that alt setup i would go to max 13,8V to avoid any overcharging and let solar do the rest 2% of SOC.

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Sure uou can post fotos, add addedum and browse for the pics, upload and close the window.

How can you have 14,4V at the bank and 15V at the accessory?
assesory don't deliver power so something is definitely wrong here and you should figure out why. 12V equipemnt all survives 15,8V as limit, thats not the issue.

Does the regulator work, so if you dail down the voltage does that work?
If you cut sense wire, what do you have as surge protection?
How many current ouput do you get at idle, at 1300/1500 /1800 with the bank at 3,1V per cell means 12,4V of the LFP in reality, not according to datasheet curve. Hard to imagine its only handwarm going at 1500rpm full output of 140-160A, thats the critical spot 1300 to 1500RPM so 2600 till 3000 atbthe alt. Handwarm means maybe 80A load and sure nothing slips there.

A 6rip serptine belt is good for about 150A max, so if you get splipage depends on the load on the alternator...if its delivering only 80A then you won't get slipage but at 140A you will if not everything is perfect.

So you have a 2:1 gearing ratio and the alt is a truck type means full output at only 3000 means you should change gearing ratio to 3:1 as all provider from large case high rpm alternator do. You get full output already at 1000RPM engine.
The low rpm school bus type delivers full at 1500rpm, that you gear 2:1.

A real 12V 300A delvering only the alternator alone is normally above 2k as thats effectivly a 400-450A alt monster. Dan is offering a whole approve and working kit inkl. All with it. So thats a bargain.
A 120-140a alt for my volvo incl. Regulation and all in costs 1500Euro so if i can get for 2k a 300A i go with that as the 20-30min the engine runs when going in/out of anchor spot delivers my full daily usage. I have 2x50hp instead 2x20hp so i easly have 10hp spare at all conditions.
I move the original 115A mitzi to the other engine, so 2x115A or real 2x80A and put the 300A alt on the other.

Addendum....
Hmmm I see INSERT IMAGE that does NOT permit to upload image
where is Addendum ..... hmmmm

-How can you have 14,4V at the bank and 15V at the accessory?
because lipo bank far away, fridge close

- A 6rip serptine belt is good for about 150A max
Do you have a link to support that?
cos im going to say 10kw power on properly tensioned belt\

-only handwarm going at 1500rpm full output
1500rpm 140 amp hand warm yes. fan above it

-So you have a 2:1 gearing ratio and the alt is a truck type means full output at only 3000 means you should change gearing ratio to 3:1 as all provider from large case high rpm alternator do. You get full output already at 1000RPM engine.
What?
smallest pulley for alt is 2in 2 to 1 is plenty good
I dont need or want full output at 1000rpm

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

He states alt deliverin 14,4V but he has 15V at accessories.
So to have 15V at assesory with voltage drop on cable too the alt must deliver 15,4V ish and the battery bank he maeasures 14.4V.
With LFP thats a huge voltage drop of 1V and something definitly wrong.
And 14,4V means LFP is completely full so charge should be cut off otherwise you float with 15 or 15,4V and overcharge your LFP to death.
With that alt setup i would go to max 13,8V to avoid any overcharging and let solar do the rest 2% of SOC.

misunderstanding
the alt puts out almost 15v to get 14.4 at the lipo bank
long wires carrying 120a which is 0.2c
perfect

The alt is only for bulking lipos. solar completes the charge

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

.......
Hmmm I see INSERT IMAGE that does NOT permit to upload image
......

To attach an image, use the 'attach files' function on the reply page (shown in the screenshot) and follow the links.

[GreenHeaven]

Originally Posted by Wotname

To attach an image, use the 'attach files' function on the reply page (shown in the screenshot) and follow the links.

That is totally dumb.
somehow car ads can be made to follow scrolling but attaching an image with the image icon not possible

whatever

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by GreenHeaven

Addendum....
Hmmm I see INSERT IMAGE that does NOT permit to upload image
where is Addendum ..... hmmmm

-How can you have 14,4V at the bank and 15V at the accessory?
because lipo bank far away, fridge close

- A 6rip serptine belt is good for about 150A max
Do you have a link to support that?
cos im going to say 10kw power on properly tensioned belt\

-only handwarm going at 1500rpm full output
1500rpm 140 amp hand warm yes. fan above it

-So you have a 2:1 gearing ratio and the alt is a truck type means full output at only 3000 means you should change gearing ratio to 3:1 as all provider from large case high rpm alternator do. You get full output already at 1000RPM engine.
What?
smallest pulley for alt is 2in 2 to 1 is plenty good
I dont need or want full output at 1000rpm

140A handwarm at 1500RPM of a 160A alt...you found a unicorn. So the fan above it is useless and just consumes energy.
No splipage means you got it right from the beginning, good.
Regarding belt own experience and balmar who states till 150A 6rip above 8rip.

But you still have several issues.
Yes 15V at the fridge but how much voltage at the alt output, 15,4 or 15,8V....
Does the regulator regulate properly?
Whats your surge and spike protection when the alternator gets disconnected under load?

Alt and battery that far apart you need to run an additional sense wire so the regulator knows the voltage drop and compensate. The large voltage drop of over 1V also indicates the power cables are underdimensionend or have bad connection, suggest to check and if connections good to run a 2nd identical length and diameter.
In your case you need to connect the alternator direct to the bank and not to the close by busbar as you can also get above 15.8V and 2nd spikes and surges go directly into your system...your eg chartplotter will have a short life now...

A tip:All my sensitive electronics like chartplotter,radar... are seperated via a victron 12V to 12V Dc2DC converter that a) puts out exactly stabilized 14,8V as long as input is above 9V, so after voltage drop all have minimum 13.8V (eg radar) optimum voltage to work and b) galvanically isolates them all so no spike, surge or any other noise will hit the sensitive equipment, was 80Euro black friday deal and worth every penny. You can even install a small AGM or preffered LFP battery 6-15AH eg motorbike one as buffer battery so if your main bank is down due to any reason the critical electronics still work.
Thats common and smart practice to protect your expensive equipment.

You re-gear by getting a larger cranckshaft and waterpump pulley because alt pullies are normally at their smallest size already. Reason is the belt needs also some surface to grip and engine manufacturers like to put smallest crankpulley they can, saves cost and also install room.
You need a larger waterpump pulley too, so it runs at same RPM then before otherwise you get a milkfoam maker and waterpump will have a short life...
Well you can still regulate the output with the regulator if you need/want it to produce less output to suck at low rpm not so many hp from your engine. But if you run it at idle eg to charge at anchor its very handy to get full output and you don't need to rev engine at 1500rpm, it needs to run shorter, create less noise and use less diesel...and thats where you mostly use this alt.