Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by dannc

The December/January 2023 edition of Professional Boat Builder arrived today. On the last page is the Parting Shot section and the topic is "Abusing LiFePo4 Batteries in ABYC's Test Kitchen." It is written by John Adley who is the president of the ABYC.

My summary of the article follows. It would be easier to cut and past but it is an actual magazine.

The ABYC technical department is running testing a variety of LiFePo4 batteries from high end marine specific batteries to less expensive batteries for unspecified applications. The batteries tested are all readily available to the public.

Testing included overcharging, undercharging, high temperatures, deep draw down, high and abrupt load, etc.

The marine specific batteries included elements required under ABYC's E-13 standard such as a a BMS and successfully handled the abusive tests. The BMS protected the batteries, wires and components.

They then started testing non compliant products in the same manner. They expected failures and and observed the tests from a safe distance. Nothing happened.

They did finally get a battery to smoke during an out of parameter test. The test was driving two 10 penny framing nails into the battery, which only smoked but did not catch fire. Not a documented accident as was noted.

There is a comment about drop in batteries causing problems, especially if they do not have a BMS, since the LiFePo4 batteries should be installed as a complete system.

They then burned up a boat as part of a arson investigation test. The batteries were placed very close to the "epicenter of the choreographed incident." The batteries did not add to the "conflagration."

They will be testing energized and non energized batteries submerged in salt water and maybe use a battery for target practice.

"Stand by for the next chapter."

Later,
Dan

Any update on the immersion tests in salt water?

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/D...CJZZAUYw%3d%3d

[dannc]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Any update on the immersion tests in salt water?

https://www.dco.uscg.mil/Portals/9/D...CJZZAUYw%3d%3d

Not that I have seen. My guess the next article is months in the future.


Later,
Dan

[donradcliffe]

While I'm waiting for ABYC, I'll add another data point from the INEOS America's cup test boat. They capsized last week and had a fire in the lithium system when it got wet.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sq7c4macOiQ

Note the use of breathing apparatus about 54 seconds in. They were prepared for toxic gas release.

[Sailing Hanse37]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

While I'm waiting for ABYC, I'll add another data point from the INEOS America's cup test boat. They capsized last week and had a fire in the lithium system when it got wet.

Note the use of breathing apparatus about 54 seconds in. They were prepared for toxic gas release.

Yes of course, this is an excerpt of the report:
“ Shortly before entering the harbor the crew had to deploy specialist fire extinguishers to deal with the boat’s now smoldering Lithium-Ion batteries.”
So these are the highly dangerous Lithium batteries, which can not be compared wit the LiFePO4 battery cells. So this seems normal to me, but unfortunate for the crew. LiFePO4 have a slightly less good energy density than Li-Ion, but yeah … they want to save weight and every gram counts…

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Sailing Hanse37

Yes of course, this is an excerpt of the report:
“ Shortly before entering the harbor the crew had to deploy specialist fire extinguishers to deal with the boat’s now smoldering Lithium-Ion batteries.”
So these are the highly dangerous Lithium batteries, which can not be compared wit the LiFePO4 battery cells. So this seems normal to me, but unfortunate for the crew. LiFePO4 have a slightly less good energy density than Li-Ion, but yeah … they want to save weight and every gram counts…

Sorry, but LifePO4 cells ARE Lithium-Ion batteries in the eyes of the regulators, insurance companies, and the press. Its really hard to get detailed information on exactly what Lithium-Ion technology created incidents like this one. However, the INEOS and Route du Rhum stories are very similar--the batteries were submerged, then dried out, then caught fire.

When I have LifePO4 batteries on a boat I am delivering today, I plan on chucking them overboard AS SOON AS they are immersed in saltwater.

I am still waiting for the ABYC to tell me that their tests show that LifePO4 is different.

[Sailing Hanse37]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Sorry, but LifePO4 cells ARE Lithium-Ion batteries in the eyes of the regulators, insurance companies, and the press. Its really hard to get detailed information on exactly what Lithium-Ion technology created incidents like this one. However, the INEOS and Route du Rhum stories are very similar--the batteries were submerged, then dried out, then caught fire.

When I have LifePO4 batteries on a boat I am delivering today, I plan on chucking them overboard AS SOON AS they are immersed in saltwater.

I am still waiting for the ABYC to tell me that their tests show that LifePO4 is different.

Again not true. Why don’t you try get accurate information? The batteries on this boat were sponsored and were in fact really Li-Ion and not LiFePO4… and no, please find the information yourself. You are only sticking to your point and tryingto prove it, not a very seamanship attitude… And i guess you will never deliver our boat but we don’t need delivery anyways

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by Sailing Hanse37

Again not true. Why don’t you try get accurate information? The batteries on this boat were sponsored and were in fact really Li-Ion and not LiFePO4… and no, please find the information yourself. You are only sticking to your point and tryingto prove it, not a very seamanship attitude… And i guess you will never deliver our boat but we don’t need delivery anyways

If you think that LifePO4 is not a Li-Ion chemistry, English must not be your first language. Please read the following article and try to explain why it is wrong.

https://circuitdigest.com/article/a-...es-used-in-evs

People who say they know something special and then don't share a link to it are called trolls.

[Sailing Hanse37]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

If you think that LifePO4 is not a Li-Ion chemistry, English must not be your first language. Please read the following article and try to explain why it is wrong.

https://circuitdigest.com/article/a-...es-used-in-evs

People who say they know something special and then don't share a link to it are called trolls.

This article clearly makes the distinction:
https://lithiumhub.com/lifepo4-batte...eyre-the-best/

Since you like citations:
“Dumb people don't know they're dumb.”
― Oliver Markus Malloy, Inside The Mind of an Introvert

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by Sailing Hanse37

This article clearly makes the distinction:
https://lithiumhub.com/lifepo4-batte...eyre-the-best/

Since you like citations:
“Dumb people don't know they're dumb.”
― Oliver Markus Malloy, Inside The Mind of an Introvert

Let's chalk it up to sloppy terminology, especially in the article you linked. The article sometimes gets it right referring to LiFePO4 and "other lithium-ion" battery types, but them botches it saying that LiFePO4 is better than Lithium-Ion.



LiFePO4 are absolutely, positively a type of Lithium-Ion battery. The difference among different Lithium-Ion battery types is the primarily the make up of the Cathode. That's where you get LFP, NMS, LCO, LFC, etc.


Look at Wikipedia and battery university for credible, vetted info.


Saying that LiFePO4 is better than Lithium-Ion is a non-sequitur. It's like saying that dogs are better than animals (dogs ARE animals), or that AGMs are better than lead-acid batteries (AGMs ARE lead-acid batteries).

[Capt Lee Shore]

OK JUST To be clear:

You have to distinguish 2 point about "Lithium battery fires" stories and keep these clear from the start:

1- was it in fact a LiFePo4 battery or some other Lithium/rechargeable battery chemistry?

.if it ain't a LifePo4 battery specifically, then never mind.

2- was the fire due to the battery, or due to things unrelated to the battery?

Shorting a circuit due to flooding leading to a fire is not a LifePo4 issue, it is an installation/fusing issue.
Any battery can short due to flooding
Any battery that shorts out could cause a fire

Just because there was an electrical fire in someone's boat that happened to have LiFePo4 batteries, does not make it a LiFePo4 battery issue, mmmkay?

Lithion Ion is the broad description of a variety of battery chemistries,

One of these is LiFePo4 marine batteries but there are many other Li ion batteries

While SOME OTHER Lithium ion battery chemistries are well known fire hazards in their own right by virtue of their chemistry, LifePo4 chemistry is just not nearly comparable a fire hazard as the other chemistries, at all.

If anything what people SHOULD be worried about aboard are rechargeable power tool batteries they toss around,

Nor is it true that LifePo4 batteries, should they ever catch fire for whatever reason, "cannot be extinguished with water because Lithium reacts with water," since LifePo4 batteries don't actually use much Lithium in the form that would react with water. This is just a myth, as is the much cherished but still a myth of the oven-as-Faraday cage.

Where LiFePo4 batteries ARE a problem, it is because they carry a LOT of charge, and it's common now for boats to have huge power banks thanks to lifepo4 so a small error in installation can be a fire hazard for that reason: installation not chemistry.

Otherwise, there is simply no fire hazard associated with properly installed lifepo4 batteries compared to any other chemistries, and they are in fact a heck of a lot better in many ways including safety