Boat Fire and Sinking in Route du Rhum

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Get your head out of the sand.

https://electrek.co/2022/04/22/tesla...cars-produced/

and even the new batteries Tesla uses and not really LifePo4...and they will catch fire too as they have a much higher density then common LifePo4 like EVE or Calb cells. Additionally they are completely differently used then in boats...some run at very high voltages where already a light bow will iginte even stuff that is hardly inflammable.
Sure Tesla had to do something about fire hazard of the 18650 cells they are using and had used....

[leecea]

Redundant post removed.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

The fact is that he reported an explosion and fire which cost him the boat and nearly cost him his life.

I delivered a boat across the Atlantic in December with internal ballast tanks, and yes, there was enough water in them to flood the battery compartment. However the tanks did not fail, and the lead acid batteries did not explode. It was not luck. The boat did not cut structural corners, I took the southern route and did not beat into 30 knots of wind for days on end, and you have to really work to get a lead acid battery to explode and burn the boat down.

The timing and reignition of the Amadeo fire fit lithium battery systems too well to ignore. However, I would be extremely surprised if the details of the Amadeo battery system chemistry and how the fire started were ever published. The news doesn't fit the agenda of a lot of big players in industry and government who want to electrify transportation.

so the boat you delivered was badly designed too, the fact another boat done the same bs doesn't make it right.
And yes in a light race boat that gets heavily used the security and likely hood **** really hit the fan is high and appropriate measures need to be undertaken and that means to have batteries installed in a way the ballast can break without flooding them.

oh really what timing fits lifepo4 well, that they explode after 2 days being submerged in salt water??? not really. just look at US at all the submerge EVs in Salt water of hurricane Ian.
All EV caught fire where non LifePo4, Tesla Model S and 3, Nissan...same the 2 EVs at the Sema recently.
Not much press awareness though, yes that's news they don't want to hear about that dirty EVs.

EVs only with very short range, typical city cars like Smart uses LifePo4 as electric density is low as well as discharge C-Rates, here batteries are that small AH that difference to higher density does not matter much and motor doesn't need that high amps. any other EV with big banks LifePo4 are just too heavy.

Well if my boats get flooded and LifePo4 house bank too and gets shorted , means hull needs to be 70cm under water that this happens, I would toss them overboard doesn't matter if lifepo4 or any other sort of battery (FLA and AGM would have been the exploded before)...and not wait 2 days. I have 2 other batteries in the other hull that won't be affected.

[team karst]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I am a fan of LiFePo4 batteries, and have been using them for years. However I do not bury my head in the sand.



If you have a spare LiFePo4 battery lying around, please put it in a horse trough in an open area, fill the trough with salt water, put only a voltmeter on the terminals, and see what happens. My best guess is that the BMS will trip it off within 5-30 minutes.



If so, then drain the trough and put a camera on it for a week. If it doesn't smoke or catch fire or explode, that's a really important data point.

I agree. My very first experience with electrolysis was with a sealed beam car headlamp, illuminating the ocean in an effort to catch bait. The wet terminals immediately bubbled and eroded. It may have lasted a full 3 minutes or so before the bulb lost vacuum, and the tungsten became airborne. And then darkness.
More than a couple decades later, my job was to convince the US Navy that a particular Li-ion battery pack wont cause issues within subs.

I have not seen any Li immersion test reports. But, there is little doubt in my mind that a terminal will erode, and eventually allow seawater to enter the case and more diabolical activity commences.
To say that the BMS will save the day is hugely optimistic. Flooded with conductive liquid, the BMS dies. And, electrolysis commences on each individual cell. And shortly thereafter, seawater invades the cells, all the cells. Li and seawater dont get along well, i suppose; but i am not a chemist.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

[...] you have to really work to get a lead acid battery to explode and burn the boat down.

The timing and reignition of the Amadeo fire fit lithium battery systems too well to ignore. However, I would be extremely surprised if the details of the Amadeo battery system chemistry and how the fire started were ever published. The news doesn't fit the agenda of a lot of big players in industry and government who want to electrify transportation.

I have a Chevrolet Bolt, you know, the electric car where the batteries spontaneously caught on fire because of a manufacturing defect. I think six of them caught on fire. Nobody got hurt, there was a recall, and the post-recall experience has been good. Mine has a new battery pack as a result of the recall. I like it. It's nice. I think it is safe.


Any form of energy storage and transfer has associated hazards. Gasoline-powered cars catch on fire routinely, often in garages sometimes during repair, sometimes following crashes. There are boat explosions and fires from gasoline, too. Sometimes people die in the fires. Lead acid batteries do explode. I've seen the aftermath. Charge a lead-acid battery that has an internally shorted cell at C/4 until it gets to up to 14.4 volts and chances are you'll have fireworks. Portable gasoline fueled generators lead to many CO poisonings every year, some on boats, with the actual number probably in excess of what is reported. And there are plenty of people who use a portable generator as a significant source of electrical power on their boats.



There are even people who have been killed by the mainspring in the spring-wound record players of the 1900s and 1910s. And by propane fires and explosions, and natural gas explosions. And alcohol stoves. And solar panel fires. And wind generators that spontaneously fly apart.



While it is foolish to disregard the inherent hazard in lithium-ion battery technologies, it is just as foolish to see that hazard outside the context of risks inherent in energy storage and utilization. None of this stuff is "perfectly safe." All of it is safer if thoughtfully chosen and carefully installed. Every energy storage system has unique hazards and capabilities and has to be seen in that light.


The culture of boats is that as a rule, information about the possible causes of serious accidents aren't revealed publicly, because attorneys are involved and attorneys advise people to keep their mouths shut. It is not necessary to blame some classified agenda of government and industry for the silence when a more plausible explanation is close at hand.


I too would like to know the details of the battery installation in the subject sinking. A battery system should survive downflooding and inversion. I recall a Hobart race some years ago where people died and FLAs were blamed for some of the carnage because they failed after knockdowns and left boats without power to communicate or to operate pumps. AGMs are now thought to be safer. I hope that the sailing community can figure out which lithium battery technologies are safest and how they have to be installed to survive an accident.


I have a lithium power system planned for a couple of years out, and am hoping this will all become more clear before then.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

...The timing and reignition of the Amadeo fire fit lithium battery systems too well to ignore. However, I would be extremely surprised if the details of the Amadeo battery system chemistry and how the fire started were ever published. The news doesn't fit the agenda of a lot of big players in industry and government who want to electrify transportation.

Hey Don, we need more information about those big players in industry and government who suppress news of fires like this.

Who are they and where do they meet to discuss and agree on the agenda?

How do they get together to decide which news is OK to allow out and which needs to be kept from us?

Boy, it would be cool if one of their staff leaked it and we found out. Or maybe that person would be liquidated. Have we heard of any mysterious deaths of disgruntled staff members (or an ex wife) of any of these industry and government leaders who are behind this agenda.

Maybe another version of the 5G system allows them to communicate and coordinate the pursuit of their secret agenda?

What do you think?

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Get your head out of the sand.

https://electrek.co/2022/04/22/tesla...cars-produced/

A single car company is using LFP in half its cars. Meanwhile, Ford, Chevy, Hyundai, BMW, Toyota .....

My head is not in the sand. Car fires are other than LFP.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by wholybee

A single car company is using LFP in half its cars. Meanwhile, Ford, Chevy, Hyundai, BMW, Toyota .....

My head is not in the sand. Car fires are other than LFP.

BMW EVs are all Li-IOn, not LifePo4. And they run with 110V, big difference to 12 or 24V…
Only the motorbike Li are LifePo4 and optional starter batteries for M-models

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

BMW EVs are all Li-IOn, not LifePo4. And they run with 110V, big difference to 12 or 24V…
Only the motorbike Li are LifePo4 and optional starter batteries for M-models

Yeah, that is what I was saying. Basically, only Tesla uses LFP, and only half of Tesla's cars. Everyone else uses a different chemistry.

Car fires do not suggest LFP is dangerous at all. Totally different.

[goboatingnow]

Enough guys

LFp does not normally contain flammable electrolyte. Any high power source of energy has a fire risk. That’s a Function of an energy store. As Nick says a 2x4 is more flammable. Not to mention that propane “ bomb” in the locker

LFP is more then safe “ enough “.

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by wingssail

Hey Don, we need more information about those big players in industry and government who suppress news of fires like this.

Who are they and where do they meet to discuss and agree on the agenda?

How do they get together to decide which news is OK to allow out and which needs to be kept from us?

Boy, it would be cool if one of their staff leaked it and we found out. Or maybe that person would be liquidated. Have we heard of any mysterious deaths of disgruntled staff members (or an ex wife) of any of these industry and government leaders who are behind this agenda.

Maybe another version of the 5G system allows them to communicate and coordinate the pursuit of their secret agenda?

What do you think?

I predicted the Felicity Ace would sink with its load of burnt out EV's a week before it went down. There will be no investigation.

Have you ever heard of the fire and loss of one of the beautiful W Class sailboats in Long Island sound?

Have you seen the accident investigation on the Ever Forward, which went aground off Baltimore? There will be no investigation.

There are 3 black SUVs pulling up in front of my house....

[donradcliffe]

Originally Posted by wholybee

Also interesting, is that the battery used in EV's IS NOT THE SAME TYPE OF BATTERY USED IN BOATS!

One type is a fire hazard and explosive. The other is not. Examples with EV batteries are completely irrelevant.

Please tell me why the Tesla LiFePo4 batteries are not the same type of battery used in boats. Do you know something that I don't?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Enough guys

LFp does not normally contain flammable electrolyte. Any high power source of energy has a fire risk. That’s a Function of an energy store. As Nick says a 2x4 is more flammable. Not to mention that propane “ bomb” in the locker

LFP is more then safe “ enough “.

Exactly.
Problem is most not differentiate the different chemistry’s, Tesla not using any LifePo4 for example as energy density per kg is not high enough, these are modified LI something containing again a fire risk, a bit less then 18650 but still significant. That’s the price you pay for above LifePo4 energy density.

EV use is high voltage, high C use+charge and not in any way comparable to low C low voltage house bank use in boats. Beside starter and windlass in typical 12v 2kw range there is no motor with high surge that runs over long Periode of time. The max a house bank sees is typically max 0.5C use for 10-20min if you have electric galley and that means somewhere between 200 and 350A with 12V…no cooling, no massive balancer or alike needed.

All safe „enough“ chemistry like LTO are heavier then LifePo4, they are the sweet spot. That’s the best indicator to determine the risk with LI batteries, LifePo4 have 1,5 till 1,7kw per kg, everything above 1,8kw per kg has a fire risk, the higher the number the higher the risk. Use them at high voltage and high C-rate and the risk goes exponentially up.
The same the voltage you use them, 12V is the stablest bank and would in most cases just need a balancer and voltage monitoring, while 24V needs BMS plus balancer and 48V BMS and a good active balancer. Reason is simple, more cells in series so their tolerances adding up and throwing the bank out of balance if not corrected.
So a 12V low c-rate bank has a 50 times lower risk then a 48V high C rate bank by just taking this 2 factors (there are more) into account. And to control this risk many more measures must be taken to control it eg cooling, in-line fuses between cells, powerful active balancers…more measures…more can go wrong…

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Please tell me why the Tesla LiFePo4 batteries are not the same type of battery used in boats. Do you know something that I don't?

I never said that.

I said that the batteries used in EVs are not the same as batteries used in boats. And that is 100% true. Very nearly all EV batteries are *not* LiFePO4. The single exception being that Tesla has recently started to use LFP in some cars. A minuscule percentage of the EV cars on the road. Context, this discussion is about Lithium battery fires. No Lithium battery fires in cars involve LFP. None. Almost all EV use batteries that are highly volatile. LFP used in boats are quite difficult to set fire.

Returning to Tesla though. The LiFePO4 batteries in a Tesla are very large, high voltage, very high C rates, and probably water cooled. Completely different than on a boat. And still, I challenge you to find an example of one that caused a fire.

[geoleo]

....What did the Capt mean when he says " Hit large seas and my ballast exploded,allowing hundreds of liters of water into the boat"........I cant understand this.