Brand New Catamaran, Lithium Bank addition

[LilleVenn]

We have on our Helia 44 more or less what you describe.
600AH AGM factory installation, 1200AH LiFePo4, 4 * 360W Solar and one spare charger for mobile flexible panels, 2000W Multi and 3000W Quattro, AC transfer switch to feed 220V factory installation, 12V switch for solar and for 12V consumers so I can choose which battery to charge and which one to discharge (mainly this runs from LiFePo4)
AGM is for the alternators, to feed 220 factory, anchor winch and electrical whinch.
LiFePo4 is for additional 220V installation (washing maschine, dishwasher, icemaker, A/C and water heater) and for 12V (fridge, frecer, navigation, etc) and chaged by solar.
It is a costly system, but for us it gives the flexibility and redundancy we wanted.
We have the lithium in the spare fuel tank, the solar chargers under the bed and the Quattro beside the Multi in the engine bay

[warrior 90]

I found it

https://www.coastalclimatecontrol.co...your-boat.html

For Solar ENERGY..... well. I would interprete, that includes the solar arch and also the house bank batteries and in general everything required to fully functioning same as with residential..... everything required till point of evacuation = CONNECTION FUSE BOX
I wonder if they would also admit using components of Your own choice ?
And what about their general pricing ? Are they competitive ?
Well, I am no expert in paper pushing but from this angle there are certainly some good perspectives. If You qualify anyway, have the boat reg to a corp. or run a charter I think this could be interesting as You should also get a warranty in the pack.

[dooleedooroo]

Originally Posted by LilleVenn

We have on our Helia 44 more or less what you describe.
600AH AGM factory installation, 1200AH LiFePo4, 4 * 360W Solar and one spare charger for mobile flexible panels, 2000W Multi and 3000W Quattro, AC transfer switch to feed 220V factory installation, 12V switch for solar and for 12V consumers so I can choose which battery to charge and which one to discharge (mainly this runs from LiFePo4)
AGM is for the alternators, to feed 220 factory, anchor winch and electrical whinch.
LiFePo4 is for additional 220V installation (washing maschine, dishwasher, icemaker, A/C and water heater) and for 12V (fridge, frecer, navigation, etc) and chaged by solar.
It is a costly system, but for us it gives the flexibility and redundancy we wanted.
We have the lithium in the spare fuel tank, the solar chargers under the bed and the Quattro beside the Multi in the engine bay

Thanks for the info. A few questions...
1200AH is pretty big, specially for ~1500w of solar alone. Do you have other means of charging it? And what percentage of lithium do you usually use?

Switching solar charge from one bank to the other, is switching manual? And do you also switching the charge characteristics manually?

[LilleVenn]

I guess our demand is between 200 and 400AH per day and I want to survife 3 to 4 days on the battery, so 1200AH is ok. Normaly no problem with solar. On a good day they produce 600 to 700AH. Ofcourse not now in winter but still no problem to keep the batteries full. But we had a new problem on our 5 day journey to the Canaries as we used the Parasailor most of the time and the course was exactly in a direction that we had shading on the panels most of the time and with the high demand of the autopilot we just could keep up without having to switch of something. But this is very spezial situation.

We were twice below 50%, otherwise always above, but mostly on places with nice weather or on shore power.
Switching solar was mostly because we didn't have the lithium from the beginning and it is not the idea to switch it under normal conditions, because the AGM's are full when we have to use the engine for ancoring.
I have also a small portable generator in case....

Changing the charge characteristic would be manual by Victron Connect an takes 2 minutes for the 4 MPPT's

[dooleedooroo]

Will appreciate the reviews and suggestions....
Objectives for the system are
minimize the change to the existing system for now, cost effective when change to full lithium in 2-3 years.

I draw general system diagram following the advises received so far....



Upper left areas are existing system. Therefore, changes to the existing system are
1. Disconnect Multiplus2000 AC output from the AC distribution bus and connect to New Multiplus3000 AC input.
2. Connect New Multiplus 3000 AC output to existing AC dist. Bus
3. Connect Dc/DC coverter output to existing DC distribution bus

Operation, system is not fully automatic
Two switches need to operate manually, multiplus 2000 inverter and DC/DC Coverter
1. Normal Mode Multiplus(Charge only mode), DC/DC Converter(OFF)
DC supply by AGM and AC supply from Lithium, with shore connection both AGM and Lithium will be charged.
2. Engine charging Lithium mode, Multiplus(inverter mode on), DC/DC(Off)
When Lithium needs extra charge from the engine,
3. DC supply by Lithium mode, Multiplus(Charge only mode), DC/DC(on)
When AGM battery is low and lithium is high enough

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by dooleedooroo

Will appreciate the reviews and suggestions....
Objectives for the system are
minimize the change to the existing system for now, cost effective when change to full lithium in 2-3 years.

I draw general system diagram following the advises received so far....

Attachment 205263

Upper left areas are existing system. Therefore, changes to the existing system are
1. Disconnect Multiplus2000 AC output from the AC distribution bus and connect to New Multiplus3000 AC input.
2. Connect New Multiplus 3000 AC output to existing AC dist. Bus
3. Connect Dc/DC coverter output to existing DC distribution bus

Operation, system is not fully automatic
Two switches need to operate manually, multiplus 2000 inverter and DC/DC Coverter
1. Normal Mode Multiplus(Charge only mode), DC/DC Converter(OFF)
DC supply by AGM and AC supply from Lithium, with shore connection both AGM and Lithium will be charged.
2. Engine charging Lithium mode, Multiplus(inverter mode on), DC/DC(Off)
When Lithium needs extra charge from the engine,
3. DC supply by Lithium mode, Multiplus(Charge only mode), DC/DC(on)
When AGM battery is low and lithium is high enough

Checked it and on the drawing and it appears correct as I recommended....
NO direct charging from the alternators to the lithium to avoid complication with Lithium charging profiles and instead using the MultiPlus 3000/24.
DC/DC to keep the AGMs happy

As a little detail I would fuse the
DC/DC convert 24-12/70 to charge the AGM batteries on both sides.
A.) to load bus (Lithium)
B.) to DC bus (AGM)
If something is wrong You will always know if it is the DC/DC converter or something else.
Besides the added safety to protect the AGM charging circuit. Don´t forget when You charge the AGMs with the Lithiums there will be some serious power.

Further more to Your Nº 3
You might be interested to add on a second battery monitor for....

"When AGM battery is low and lithium is high enough"

This will allow You the control with set points
Of course once You go all Lithium You might wanna do mayor changes but even then I would keep the general design the way it is with the 2 independent circuits and just change the AGMs to Lithium and add more Amps where desired. I think this design has many advantages as to abundance and flexibility and the BIG ONE..... No further mayor surgery, just adding on.
Read here... prevent charging AGM when Lithium is low..... and other interesting info for Your Lithium circuit.....

4.2.2 Relay settings / page 23 - 27
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...S-SE-PT-IT.pdf


REF: Switching solar charge from one bank to the other, is switching manual? And do you also switching the charge characteristics manually?
Changing the charge characteristic would be manual by Victron Connect and takes 2 minutes for the 4 MPPT's

Of course You can do it and it also won´t take much time but if there for what ever reason is a communication problem between Your devices there is the chance of the Lithiums getting a different charge profile and maybe without notice. One thing is Your monitor and the other are all the set points in the Inverter/Charger/MPPT/BMS.

[LilleVenn]

This is my installation

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by LilleVenn

This is my installation

Of course in this diagram there is a totally integrated system. You integrated the 12 V from the lithium to the main DC of the factory installation. This could open the door for arguments on the warranty. The additional Victron Quattro for charging the Lithium will not affect the factory warranty but the second AC circuit for high demand consumers again could affect warranty issues.

However the two inverter/chargers together for 2 AC circuits will eat a lot of energy and this route is very inefficient and only recommendable as a back up with the solar as main charging for the Lithium and with all AC loads
Evaluate Zero Load Power details = Watt/hours

Read details Quattro manual page 13 - AES and Search Mode

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...xxx4xx)-EN.pdf

No info on web site for the same subject on the MultiPlus but I expect them to be similar.

You run the Lithium system with all Your high consumers on 12 V while the intention is 24 V on the Lithium and Solar circuit for better efficiency wires +Inverter/charger= less heat. The continuous load of the AirCon will definitely have an effect.

Well the higher the voltage ?

OK, I see Your easy manual switch from solar for option AGM or Lithium but of course now only with all 12 V.
Now we are at an important question... All 12 V or split 12 V for DC and 24 V for AC.
I like the split concept as long as it allows me to connect both for "back up" because of the advantages of higher voltage when converting DC to AC for continuous high loads like AirCon and induction cooktop as proposed



Of course to be discussed > Charging Lithium directly with alternators.
Stock alternators will produce too much heat to keep up with the high power demand of the Lithiums. So You will need an external regulator and that can definitely affect the warranty.
That of course in case All 12 V and would not apply to dual voltage system.

I don´t trust those external regulators. When something goes wrong the manufacturer will say it´s the fault of the alternator that is not made for this application or in case of using a high amp alternator it is not made for such a constant high demand while the alternator manufacturers will blame it on the regulator. Without getting into the subject of quality and service of the individual implicated parties/companies the reality is..... when something happens most of the times it gets expensive and the suppliers of those components are far away.
INMO it´s the weakest link in the whole system.
On the flip side no issues with factory AGM set up and 2 stock alternators.
Ok, all Lithium, but is it worth it with all the cost and hassle ? How long will the AGMs last being charged by the alternators and the DC/DC converter from the Solar Lithium ? In this set up all DC like auto pilot will still be supported by the Lithium as long as allowed. I rather prefer more Solar and Lithium for the easy and stable match and maintenance and lower risk of failure.

What would be the consequences in case of trouble shooting ? spares ? comparing the designs features ?

I see Your points. Would You take the same route again if You had the choice ?

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by LilleVenn

This is my installation

Quite complicated.

Why do you not feed the AC output of the Multiplus into the AC input of the Quattro and use power assist, you can have then up to 5kVA. What is the reason of having 2 separate AC installations anyway?

[dooleedooroo]

Originally Posted by LilleVenn

This is my installation

I see switches marked as "manual selector for positive and negative". Is that mean this is double pole switch? Is there a reason? Can you just switch Positive side?

[dooleedooroo]

Originally Posted by warrior 90

You might be interested to add on a second battery monitor for....

"When AGM battery is low and lithium is high enough"

This will allow You the control with set points
Of course once You go all Lithium You might wanna do mayor changes but even then I would keep the general design the way it is with the 2 independent circuits and just change the AGMs to Lithium and add more Amps where desired. I think this design has many advantages as to abundance and flexibility and the BIG ONE..... No further mayor surgery, just adding on.
Read here... prevent charging AGM when Lithium is low..... and other interesting info for Your Lithium circuit.....

4.2.2 Relay settings / page 23 - 27
https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...S-SE-PT-IT.pdf

Good idea! So I can use BMV712 smart and connect both AGM and Lithium(It says it can connect two batteries, maybe purchase another shunt, I guess?) and using its relay signal to switch multiplus and dc/dc convert.

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by dooleedooroo

Good idea! So I can use BMV712 smart and connect both AGM and Lithium(It says it can connect two batteries, maybe purchase another shunt, I guess?) and using its relay signal to switch multiplus and dc/dc convert.

My thoughts
Those Victron battery monitors cost peanuts and are a lot of BANG for $$$.
YES, very handy component if You know how to use them.
BUT I would keep the Solar Lithium totally separated as You planned and use 2 monitors... one for Your DC circuit AGM/alternators and one for Your AC circuit Lithium/Solar.

As Your AGM maintained by the DC/DC converter should always be full You will always know Your situation with one look at Your electrical panel where You also have AC and DC with those little monitors on each side telling You what´s going out and what´s coming in on each side.

With the set point of the second monitor adjusted to minimum state of charge required on the lithium battery You will get an alarm signal if the Lithium battery goes below Your desired voltage.= Not enough solar to keep up with demand > shut off DC/DC converter > further alarm from DC monitor once AGM gets below desired voltage = DC vital electronics, auto pilot, etc > function critical ........ > manual intervention required

If the situation requieres You make adjustments.....
> shut down loads on Lithium to adjust to Solar > situation will come back to normal and open DC/DC converter > charge AGM back to normal

OR

Your Lithium/Solar is Your main energy source.

If required plan "B" = additional power from alternators to both AGM direct and Lithium through MulitiPlus 3000 24/120

For the rest SET IT and FORGET IT.

Easy to trouble shoot and fix EVERYWHERE. You have doubts, keep a spare. monitor on board......I would

I asume with the BMS 123 You already understand my filosophy. As more sophisticated You get with Your design and fancy components the bigger the chances You will not be able to fix it Yourself.
I like FLY BY WIRE but not without pilot and with Fly BY boats in the salty humid marine environment I definitely have my reservations.
One bad connection can really screw up Your day and if You don´t find it screw up Your plans.
If You have problems with the factory installation there is always a wiring diagram with numbers and positions and a telephone number You can call.
What You did on Your own You will always understand))) Hahaha, hopefully.

Of course a new boat might not come as perfect as You want because there are no perfect boats. Now You want Lithium, Solar and You will need a bigger Inverter because of Your ideas of creature comfort. Does that mean You will throw out the MulitiPlus 2000 ?
Hell NO...might come handy one of those days.
Of course if You design a new installation from scratch the situation is changing and You would not have it.
Would it be cheaper ? YES
Would it be practical in Your situation ? I think NO

PS: With this concept Your focus is on the Lithium house bank as primary energy storage and the solar panels. LilleVenn made some valuable comments on power demands in relation to battery size. By curiosity of this thread I checked power consumption for induction cooktops ...average 1500-1800 W each burner.
Now also don´t forget sometimes the admirals really love to impress the guests with their cooking tallents and some Christmas lightning is romantic.
Make You considerations where You wanna locate Your Lithium batteries and posible future expansions of Your PRIMARY energy storage.
On the EV-Power web site there is easy info on exact size and weight for complete packs for orientation.

With the solar panels I made my comments.
I might add..... Tesla has a stake in SunPower ( I guess because of the Power Wall) but there are rumors SunPower wants to push much more sales and go OnLine
Here You can find all their different international web sites with contact info.....

https://www.sunpowercorp.co.uk/solar...n-solar-panels

[CatNewBee]

Originally Posted by dooleedooroo

Good idea! So I can use BMV712 smart and connect both AGM and Lithium(It says it can connect two batteries, maybe purchase another shunt, I guess?) and using its relay signal to switch multiplus and dc/dc convert.

You can connect only one shunt, then either second battery (voltage only reading for a start battery), or balance voltage or temp sensor.

The relay can be programmed on many parameters, but mainly based on the first battery.

If you want 2 batteries fully monitored, you need 2 BMV.