Cost of LiFePo4 vs Lead in Your Market

[john61ct]

Yes none of these reports are comparable unless the poster indicates the maker and purchase location. Ideally a link to the vendor.

I know of at least one that I doubt is even LFP.

[ranger58sb]

Our Lifeline GPL-4CT AGMs were USD $285/each in June 2017, $1208 total including tax.

Nominal capacityt 440-Ah total at 12V, 220-Ah usable, USD $5.49/Ah at 12V.

Initial cost; no clue about life cycles yet...

-Chris

[Jerry Woodward]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Heat is a major contributor to calendar life as is continuing charging after the battery is full, floating etc....

Because our waters are cold, rare to see our battery above 75F, and my storage temps are also cool/cold, & I never let them sit anywhere near 100% SOC, nor do I float them, or charge below freezing, I've seen virtually no effects of calendar aging on our 2009 400Ah Winston cells.

This is with cells at nearly 1100 cycles to 80% DOD and they are still delivering in excess of 400Ah when I capacity test them.

I keep hearing the warning about heat. My boat lives in FL and is on the hard all summer with battery temps probably at 80-90 degrees for 6 months. What sort of a hit on LFP battery life would I take?

[john61ct]

Compared to a user in Maine or Norway, significant for sure, but too many variables to put a hard number.

For calendar life, say 8-20 years rather than 15-50.

In daily use say 1500-5000 cycles rather than 3000-8000 (avoiding the shoulders)

Total WAGs and optimistic maybe of course, but you can see how some would consider the factor to be significant, while others would say it's so crazy long anyway who cares?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Our Lifeline GPL-4CT AGMs were USD $285/each in June 2017, $1208 total including tax.

Nominal capacityt 440-Ah total at 12V, 220-Ah usable, USD $5.49/Ah at 12V.

Initial cost; no clue about life cycles yet...

-Chris

Depends on use, when I got mine I spoke with them at Lifeline and was instructed as to their use.
What I said was my use was partial cycling every day to about 90% SOC, but once a week a good, full charge and once a month equalizing (Lifeline’s recommendation).
He told me that in five years I’d be calling him back for another set.

It’s the PSOC that “gets” them, reduce that and of course they will go longer, don’t equalize once a month and they won’t last as long.
I actually get them fully charged twice a week if not more, and have spent way more time on Shorepower than originally planned, so maybe six or seven years?

[a64pilot]

So how do you handle LFP when on shorepower?
Do you rig up a relay and a disconnect? If so what is it based on, voltage or timer?

I was thinking about disconnecting it completely and run my Sterling charger in power supply mode?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Again, my cells were manufactured in 2009 and they still deliver in excess of their 400Ah rating at 1100 cycles and 9 years of age.. If they all of a sudden fall off a 10 year cliff I will let you know......

What great news!! Wow.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

So how do you handle LFP when on shorepower?
Do you rig up a really and a disconnect? If so what is it based on, voltage or timer?

I was thinking about disconnecting it completely and run my Sterling charger in power supply mode?

That's a very good question.


I wonder how others would do it.


In my case, if I actually do this lithium conversion, I will leave one of my two lead banks and end up with more of a hybrid system. I will have separate shore power chargers and will simply switch off the one which is connected to the lithium bank.


This sounds like it could be an important issue since by all accounts you don't want to fully charge and then hold a lithium bank at 100%, like you do with lead.


Perhaps some battery chargers (Victron?) could be programmed to stop charging short of 100%, on command, for when you know you will be on shore power for a while and don't want them fully charged.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Depends on use, when I got mine I spoke with them at Lifeline and was instructed as to their use.
What I said was my use was partial cycling every day to about 90% SOC, but once a week a good, full charge and once a month equalizing (Lifeline’s recommendation).
He told me that in five years I’d be calling him back for another set.

It’s the PSOC that “gets” them, reduce that and of course they will go longer, don’t equalize once a month and they won’t last as long.
I actually get them fully charged twice a week if not more, and have spent way more time on Shorepower than originally planned, so maybe six or seven years?

ok so now we have a specific from the supplier approx 5 year life from what could be called fairly normal boater use.
And as Chris posted $5.49 per usable ah.
And the stated things that kill the lifelines are the items that actually improve the longevity of Lfp . With no need for monthly equalization. Makes even that over priced $9 per ah for ten + years look even better ( most good diy installs are considerably cheaper)

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Yes none of these reports are comparable unless the poster indicates the maker and purchase location. Ideally a link to the vendor.

I know of at least one that I doubt is even LFP.

Good point!


For mine:


Winston cells: https://www.ev-power.eu/Winston-40Ah-200Ah/?cur=1


Trojan and Lifeline: https://www.tayna.co.uk/


Tayna is an aggressive discounter but a very good company -- where I have always bought my lead batteries (so bloody many of them ).



I've bought THREE sets of lead acid batteries from Tayna in the last 9 years -- count 'em 24 pieces -- so I guess anyone can understand why I'm looking at lithium

[Singularity]

Originally Posted by Jerry Woodward

Can you please tell me where I can get 400 ah of LFP for $2,000? Does this include the BMS? What about quality? My research indicates it will run more like $5,000 for a 400ah system.

http://www.calbusainc.com/calb-buy/

$2000 is for a collection of 3.2v 100ah Calb/Winston batteries totalling 400ah 12v (I'm actually converting to 24v and will increase LFP in the coming months closer to 1000ah (12v equiv)). You must built your own battery rack, determine which manner of battery management you are going with, and install that yourself.

So rather than say which LFP option is better quality (COTS 12v LFP with integrated battery management versus DIY raw LFP batteries with DIY battery management), maybe we could say that the COTS LFP costs twice what DIY LFP costs currently in the US.

The act of spending twice the money for the same (or less) utility seems as a common thing that cruisers are willing to do in the name of "quality." Quality is an imaginary construct. Emperic evidence finds LFP superior to lead, with LFP banks having been proving themselves through multiple life cycles of lead batteries.

LFP on paper and reality is superior to lead, and is now sufficiently inexpensive to make lead obsolete in its role as the standard go-to battery system for liveaboard cruisers.

Back in the day steam engine holdouts certainly must have been intimidated by the massive forces transmitted through "science project" appearance of internal combustion engines, the technology that used a "much more dangerous hydrocarbon fuel source" and other various concerns. Maybe it's just vanity causing me to not want to me the last guy with a steam engine on my row.

[mikedefieslife]

In my case I’m looking for around 250 usable ah at 12v. I currently have a 675ah bank but it is 5 years old or more.

4x 300ah 3.2 winston cells are €1.580

2x 554 Rolls 6v FLA are €710.

Based on 250ah
Lithium is €6.32 per ah
FLA is €2.84 per ah

The Rolls batteries are guaranteed for 7 years. The Winston cells are DIY so guarantee is limited.

The Winston cells weight 40kg total. The Rolls 112kg. The weight advantage is massive. Though makes little odds considering i have 200kg of batteries at the moment. So either is a saving.

Most likely possible to get a good 10 years out of either set. As much as I’d like the Lithium bank, once the cost per ah in addition to the capital outlay isn’t attractive to me being the reasonable economic man.

Please do tell me if I’m missing something.

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

So how do you handle LFP when on shorepower?
Do you rig up a relay and a disconnect? If so what is it based on, voltage or timer?

I was thinking about disconnecting it completely and run my Sterling charger in power supply mode?

Discharge to 50%, isolate it, and let a lead bank and it's charger act as your shore power buffer. When I am on the mooring, and not there, the bank is at 30% to 60% SOC with no charging.

[Singularity]

LFP on shore power:

My situation:
Shore AC passes through Magnum inverter/charger to boat AC outlets. If surplus shore AC energy is present (always) then the Magnum will charge the LFP (per your programmed settings).
If you unplug shore AC, the Magnum immediately asks the LFP for DC amps to convert to AC to continue feeding the AC outlets.
Victron (and other) units will do the same.

[Jerry Woodward]

Originally Posted by Singularity

http://www.calbusainc.com/calb-buy/

$2000 is for a collection of 3.2v 100ah Calb/Winston batteries totalling 400ah 12v (I'm actually converting to 24v and will increase LFP in the coming months closer to 1000ah (12v equiv)). You must built your own battery rack, determine which manner of battery management you are going with, and install that yourself.

Thanks, that is a good price, but if we're comparing costs, we should also include the cost of the BMS and hardware in a DIY setup. Can you share your total cost? Assume the charging sources are all adequate for LFP. Thanks.