Epoch Made All What We Want

[rgleason]

@tanglewood Thanks for your excellent explanations.

Is this your system? Looks like a similar color to Victron.
https://www.mgenergysystems.eu/en/

By direct canbus connection I was thinking of the direct connection that Wakespeed WS500 canbus harness has with a REC ABMS

REC Active BMS for 4 cells connected in series with active bi-directional balancing. Long-term development now enables us to present you this excellent device, proven with various real life test conditions, latest technology of electronics components and unbeatable balancing algorithms. Also compatible with Victron Energy inverters and Wakespeed WS500 regulators for use in marine applications.

I am guessing that the REC ABMS and Wakespeed WS500 use the DVCC protocol.
https://www.rec-bms.com/wp-content/u..._Wakespeed.pdf

Unfortunately the REC ABMS is a little too pricey to purchase 3 of them to make (3)100a LFP/BMS batteries for backup and alternator protection), and I do like the packaged aspect of batteries like EPOCH but wish they had the right communications.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by rgleason

@tanglewood Thanks for your excellent explanations.

Is this your system? Looks like a similar color to Victron.
https://www.mgenergysystems.eu/en/

By direct canbus connection I was thinking of the direct connection that Wakespeed WS500 canbus harness has with a REC ABMS

I am guessing that the REC ABMS and Wakespeed WS500 use the DVCC protocol.
https://www.rec-bms.com/wp-content/u..._Wakespeed.pdf

Unfortunately the REC ABMS is a little too pricey to purchase 3 of them to make (3)100a LFP/BMS batteries for backup and alternator protection), and I do like the packaged aspect of batteries like EPOCH but wish they had the right communications.

Epoch have that communication.
But instead buy 3x100AH better to get one 300AH. Forget that redudancy here as lithium is very reliable but a 300AH cell has many advantages of 3x100AH.
Regarding BMS: have a look at new JK inverter BMS, Master/Slave config and out of the box working with victron...the 100A with 1A active balancing is 140Euro and the 200A with 2A active balancing is 220Euro. Sadly on available till now in 24V and 48V. But you can write their support and request a 12V version...like i and several others did.

[rgleason]

"Epoch have that communication."

The jury is still out on that. Yes they have some communication, but look at Panbo and some FB groups. Not sure it communicates with Wakespeed, as it appears that Wakespeed is not cooperating with Epoch in that.

"But instead buy 3x100AH better to get one 300AH. Forget that redudancy here as lithium is very reliable but a 300AH cell has many advantages of 3x100AH."

Exactly what advantages? I want backup and resiliency so if one battery BMS shuts down, the nav and lights don't fail. Also (3)LFP/BMS prevents load dump and is inherently safer.

"Regarding BMS: have a look at new JK inverter BMS, Master/Slave config and out of the box working with victron...the 100A with 1A active balancing is 140Euro and the 200A with 2A active balancing is 220Euro. Sadly on available till now in 24V and 48V. But you can write their support and request a 12V version...like i and several others did."

I did write them.

The industry is slowly moving in the right direction, but it is taking too long. I do not intend to install a half baked system that does not work, but at some point my (2) Trojan T105 6v are going to get below 80%

Opinion: We need a small Epoch 100a (similar to the Epoch 300ah and 460ah) with Canbus and Victron Communications (using DVCC proocal). Also all of these batteries should be confirmed to work with the Zeus and Wakespeed WS500 regulators, directing their charge routine. This 100ah-120ah battery can we paralleled to create a resilient 300 ah battery that should be adequate for many smaller cruising sailboats.

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Epoch have that communication.
But instead buy 3x100AH better to get one 300AH. Forget that redudancy here as lithium is very reliable but a 300AH cell has many advantages of 3x100AH.
Regarding BMS: have a look at new JK inverter BMS, Master/Slave config and out of the box working with victron...the 100A with 1A active balancing is 140Euro and the 200A with 2A active balancing is 220Euro. Sadly on available till now in 24V and 48V. But you can write their support and request a 12V version...like i and several others did.

It is not good that JK does not produce the inverter bms for 12V. Having two programmable relays on JK Bms is a very important and unique feature. I think Epoch does not have a feature like this. That's what I wanted anyway, but it's not available for the 4s, duh. If you have access to the alternator's rotor excitation circuit, no additional hardware is required other than a simple thermostat to solve two basic alternator-related charging problems. It will be sufficient to connect the alternator rotor excitation to this JK bms relay and a NC termostat. JK bms cuts off the alternator rotor warning before HVC or LTC, or the thermostat cuts off the rotor warning if the alternator temperature exceeds 90-100 C°. It's that simple.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by rgleason

"Epoch have that communication."

The jury is still out on that. Yes they have some communication, but look at Panbo and some FB groups. Not sure it communicates with Wakespeed, as it appears that Wakespeed is not cooperating with Epoch in that.

"But instead buy 3x100AH better to get one 300AH. Forget that redudancy here as lithium is very reliable but a 300AH cell has many advantages of 3x100AH."

Exactly what advantages? I want backup and resiliency so if one battery BMS shuts down, the nav and lights don't fail. Also (3)LFP/BMS prevents load dump and is inherently safer.

"Regarding BMS: have a look at new JK inverter BMS, Master/Slave config and out of the box working with victron...the 100A with 1A active balancing is 140Euro and the 200A with 2A active balancing is 220Euro. Sadly on available till now in 24V and 48V. But you can write their support and request a 12V version...like i and several others did."

I did write them.

The industry is slowly moving in the right direction, but it is taking too long. I do not intend to install a half baked system that does not work, but at some point my (2) Trojan T105 6v are going to get below 80%

Opinion: We need a small Epoch 100a (similar to the Epoch 300ah and 460ah) with Canbus and Victron Communications (using DVCC proocal). Also all of these batteries should be confirmed to work with the Zeus and Wakespeed WS500 regulators, directing their charge routine. This 100ah-120ah battery can we paralleled to create a resilient 300 ah battery that should be adequate for many smaller cruising sailboats.

Epoch 300AH do work with DVCC and the wakespeed too, so all you need.
No a 100AH is not needed as it doesn't make sense in marine world, see below.

You are still in the lead world, LFP is trillion times more reliable then lead and monitored with cerbo/victron you realize the smallest problem (if there is ever one) immediately and fix it before it gets an issue. If one BMS shuts off the other do in 99.99% too as there is a bigger external problem. This is fake redundancy.
Disadvantages of small 100AH cells.
3 batteries in parallel don't share current 100% equally so one is more in stress then others...and this gets bigger over time...

Can one 100A Epoch start your engine, cells maybe but the BMS? They are simply all the time on the limit as too small.
100A Cells are very small and unless they are winston don't have the peak C rating needed for high surges of a starter or other motors or 3kw inverter which you want running electric galley.
If you want redudancy that makes sense take 2 x230AH ones...200AH cells is the minimum that makes sense in marine to drive motors with surge loads and also their BMS can. And you cannot have too much capacity.

My recommendation after 20 years experience with lifepo4. On small banks <300AH always use winston cells as
1) they are the only one that have enough peak C that even the smallest cells can start your engine or windlass or run big inverters. You may not now see that you needed it but experience is that if you can you want....
2)they are the most reliable cells on the market and if they fail other would do long time before, doesn't matter if one or 20 batteries in parallel (fake redudancy) as you have a massive external problem, most likely a badly installed system.
3) they are so stable and robust that in 4S you don't need a BMS, A BMV712 that does LCV and HCV with a trip coil breaker is more then enough. Small Simple and very reliable system. The BMV712 delivers whats needed for DVCC on a victron system. Less is more here....
4) the price difference to lower quality cells in Euro is relativly small below 300AH that if you take total costs its maybe 200Euro more. The cells itself are double but with all needed its maybe 200Euro more.
5) they have normally 15-20% more capacity longterm then rated, so 4x200AH is actually 220-240AH with 4C constant and 6C peak.
You have the winston and want more capacity, add the cheapst drop in in parallel. They give you all the luxery but if the **** hits the fan you have your rolce royce lifepo4 that will be always there...if not the LFP is for sure your smallest problem.....

[MerMike]

Originally Posted by MV Intrigue

Is there any scenario where the Arco Zues should make use of not having the ATC signal?

The Zeus doesn't recognize the ATC signal over DVCC at the moment. There is a ATC input which can be wired to a BMS that has an ATC output. I wired it to a switch so I can turn the field off and on independently.

According to ARCO, DVCC support is coming, "within the next few weeks". I have no reason not to believe them, but good software is hard.

Originally Posted by MV Intrigue

Now I wonder if all that changes if you put the Arco Zues in generator mode?

Generator mode responds to changes in engine RPM. Set the RPM, put the Zeus in Gen Mode and it will make maximum power until the RPM changes. Since I'm limited to 20% duty cycle on the test bed and can't vary the RPM, there's no noticeable difference. I haven't tested anything else.

[MV Intrigue]

Originally Posted by MerMike

The Zeus doesn't recognize the ATC signal over DVCC at the moment. There is a ATC input which can be wired to a BMS that has an ATC output. I wired it to a switch so I can turn the field off and on independently.

According to ARCO, DVCC support is coming, "within the next few weeks". I have no reason not to believe them, but good software is hard.


Generator mode responds to changes in engine RPM. Set the RPM, put the Zeus in Gen Mode and it will make maximum power until the RPM changes. Since I'm limited to 20% duty cycle on the test bed and can't vary the RPM, there's no noticeable difference. I haven't tested anything else.

Thanks much for the replies. I am still trying to work out the logic of the various situations if the Arco Zues gets ATC info and the various ways that info can be employed.

The scenario where the Arco Zues shuts down if it loses the ATC from the Cerbo GX via Epoch 460 might not be desirable. If the battery malfunctioned and it was not allowed to charge and not allowed to discharge and the Arco made use of this signal to also shutdown... then the boat is dark. Also simply putting it on a switch like you did may be a good option.

Of course under normal operation if the battery was full and lost ATC but was allowed to discharge, then systems run as usual from battery power until ATC comes back. The Epoch 460 does block charge when completely full.

May be better to set up the Arco Zues charge voltage at something resembling 95% SOC. Say 13.7? That way the battery simply floats at ~95% while underway and there should be a balance between maintaining batt SOC at 95% and additional current demands from ships systems?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by MV Intrigue

Thanks much for the replies. I am still trying to work out the logic of the various situations if the Arco Zues gets ATC info and the various ways that info can be employed.

The scenario where the Arco Zues shuts down if it loses the ATC from the Cerbo GX via Epoch 460 might not be desirable. If the battery malfunctioned and it was not allowed to charge and not allowed to discharge and the Arco made use of this signal to also shutdown... then the boat is dark. Also simply putting it on a switch like you did may be a good option.

Of course under normal operation if the battery was full and lost ATC but was allowed to discharge, then systems run as usual from battery power until ATC comes back. The Epoch 460 does block charge when completely full.

May be better to set up the Arco Zues charge voltage at something resembling 95% SOC. Say 13.7? That way the battery simply floats at ~95% while underway and there should be a balance between maintaining batt SOC at 95% and additional current demands from ships systems?

Wakespeed and Zeus are the best example to overingeneer a simple task charging a lifepo4 with an alternator.
Lifepo4 need a simple bulk charge with max 14.2V then shut off. Shut off (also per switch) to quickly ramp down field current to 0A to avoid a big surge/peak. LFP are robust enough that you have always 3 to 5sek to ramp down and not need to cut immediately. In parallel just modulate field current so the alternator doesn't exceed the stator temp it runs safe, most 100 degrees celcius measured at the case.
All you need for a lifepo4. For the last 2% if you think you need use solar, a flexible 50W panel is enough that fits on every boat or simply forget it as its not economical at all. Most have solar as 1st source anyhow, so use it for the last 2%
I know banks that are charged with a power supply with 14.4V, when 14.4V are reached disconnected since 16 years and the bank still has 91% capacity after 16years.
Never absorption or float. And these are older style cells, less good quality then todays budget 280AH EVEs...
There is still so much lead thinking out there...

All the other features 0.01% of boat needs if you eg have a big alternator on a tiny 10hp engine.

[MV Intrigue]

I currently have an older Balmar MC-618 that has lithium settings. Trying to see if I need Wakespeed or Zues.

It is clear that as we get more and more fancy stuff that these systems are far from fool proof. As a matter of fact they are requiring more and more very careful thought to employ effectively. In addition they almost all require careful set up and monitoring and tweaking. This seems to imply that end users (in many cases customers who simply wrote a check) are going to have to be more educated and more proficient and have a greater understanding of the systems and their operations...not less. Even in light of the new systems sophistication and connectivity.

I have a pair of the Epoch 460s and a full Victron system now. I have bench tested it and I am taking the batteries to the boat today to mount in the new location. The MultiplusII will follow next week. Then then rest. I have been drinking from the firehose of Victron for several months...lol. Its quite a bit.

[MerMike]

My boat has a pair of drop-in Kilovault 200AH LFP batteries, a Balmar 614 and very minimal solar. The system is relatively simple and works well, but it takes some attention to manage. The goal of a smarter system is to let the storage system communicate how much energy is needed, to a broker (like the Cerbo) that determines the best source of available energy. It gets complicated when multiple charging sources are involved.

I've set up numerous systems and a smart regulator is useful for installations with a large LFP bank and where DC-DC charging is inefficient. Having a smart battery working in concert with other smart charging sources is complicated under the hood, but as far as the end user is concerned it is easy to operate and does not require the knowlege needed to manage a less complex system based on drop-ins. I don't consider that overengineering.

I should add that my goal in testing the Epoch and Zeus is to see whether a system can be put together that works as well as the highly integrated Victron systems I've assembled, that is easy to use and offers a more attractive price point.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by SOLAR SUPPORT

It is not good that JK does not produce the inverter bms for 12V. Having two programmable relays on JK Bms is a very important and unique feature. I think Epoch does not have a feature like this. That's what I wanted anyway, but it's not available for the 4s, duh. If you have access to the alternator's rotor excitation circuit, no additional hardware is required other than a simple thermostat to solve two basic alternator-related charging problems. It will be sufficient to connect the alternator rotor excitation to this JK bms relay and a NC termostat. JK bms cuts off the alternator rotor warning before HVC or LTC, or the thermostat cuts off the rotor warning if the alternator temperature exceeds 90-100 C°. It's that simple.

I like that approach, simple and direct, but don't the LFP batteries/BMS need to have more control over alternator charging than just an advance shut off before shutting down the battery? There is the need to balance the cells, etc.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by rgleason

I like that approach, simple and direct, but don't the LFP batteries/BMS need to have more control over alternator charging than just an advance shut off before shutting down the battery? There is the need to balance the cells, etc.

It depends on your usage. If the alternator is your primary method of getting the batteries full, having it all perfectly optimized matters. You can get away with a less optimal setup if the alternator is just for some incidental charging when motoring, but you aren't using it as a primary charging source.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by MV Intrigue

Thanks much for the replies. I am still trying to work out the logic of the various situations if the Arco Zues gets ATC info and the various ways that info can be employed.

The scenario where the Arco Zues shuts down if it loses the ATC from the Cerbo GX via Epoch 460 might not be desirable. If the battery malfunctioned and it was not allowed to charge and not allowed to discharge and the Arco made use of this signal to also shutdown... then the boat is dark. Also simply putting it on a switch like you did may be a good option.

Of course under normal operation if the battery was full and lost ATC but was allowed to discharge, then systems run as usual from battery power until ATC comes back. The Epoch 460 does block charge when completely full.

May be better to set up the Arco Zues charge voltage at something resembling 95% SOC. Say 13.7? That way the battery simply floats at ~95% while underway and there should be a balance between maintaining batt SOC at 95% and additional current demands from ships systems?

One way is to have two levels of controls.

1. First Level- Normal Operation- Boat Electrical system follows BMS canbus directions, which control the charger operations (Solar, Alternator, Shore power and inverter) directly. There should be no need for the protective heavy duty relays to operate. One of the signals needed is an advance shut down signal. There are others needed to control the amount of charge, or the trailing current for balancing, etc.

2. Second Level- Protective Situation - LFP/BMS has a set of max criteria and shuts down (both charge and load buses and sometimes separately) when necessary via one or two heavy duty relays. This occurs when a charger is not following instructions for some reason. In order to protect the LFP the BMS shuts off the relays and disconnects the chargers or loads. In this case we want a Victron Argofet wired to provide a load using the starter battery and also a Balmar APD.

This is a very simple robust system. If you have (3) LFP in parallel and the batteries are getting older and one of the cells is weak and low voltage or getting hot, that battery's BMS may shut down, but the other two LFP/BMS remain in operation, providing house power, and still allow 100-200a of charging capacity (2 batts combined) so that the alternator does not see a load dump (This Scenario could be separate from #1 or #2 above). It is another level of protection.

If #2 occurs you need to switch over to starter FLA or LFP and figure out what happened and what to do.

Of course we are going to need the controls to work, such that if they fail, things can continue in some fashion.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

It depends on your usage. If the alternator is your primary method of getting the batteries full, having it all perfectly optimized matters. You can get away with a less optimal setup if the alternator is just for some incidental charging when motoring, but you aren't using it as a primary charging source.

Interesting point. I'd like to know why you think so?

My use is off of a mooring, never at the dock. Perhaps 100-200 watts of solar. Coastal Cruising 2-4 weeks. Some longer runs. Never at a dock. Almost always charged with alternator.

Every boat has a different owner and different needs I think.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Interesting point. I'd like to know why you think so?

My use is off of a mooring, never at the dock. Perhaps 100-200 watts of solar. Coastal Cruising 2-4 weeks. Some longer runs. Never at a dock. Almost always charged with alternator.

Every boat has a different owner and different needs I think.

If alternator charging is only incidental but solar or shore power get the batteries full periodically, then it doesn't really matter if the batteries balance or not when charging from the alternator. But if the alternator is a primary charging source, then maximizing charge rate, getting the batteries totally full, balanced, etc. from alternator charging is more important.

In your case, your alternator is a primary charge source, so optimization is important. Someone with much more solar, no long periods of motoring, maybe a generator for supplemental charging and a periodic visit to a dock with shore power would be a different situation.