Epoch Made All What We Want

[MV Intrigue]

Originally Posted by rgleason

M/V Intrigue wrote:





Which I just viewed for the third time. Thank you M/V Intrigue.
I appears that those Epoch batteries are successfully using Canbus, DVCC to communicate via the CerboGX canbus connection, to control the Inverter.


I would be wonderful if someone could confirm that the Epoch BMS will properly control the Regulators, (preferably the Wakespeed WS500 and the Zeus).


If the inverter is properly responding, can we start to hope that the regulators will follow Epoch BMS instructions? It would be great to have a positive confirmation though.



Thanks.

Andre at The Yacht Riggers in St Pete Florida is currently testing the Zues with the Epoch 460s and CerboGX. I think Arco is still working on a few things with Epoch. But he seems to feel it will happen soon. In theory it would certainly seem they should work. But of course I, along with many, will be waiting on the results and hopefully confirmation as well as some programming details. That would really be the last link in the chain.

[MV Intrigue]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

As i said manufacturer spec and yes eg pylontech is know to charge lower to 3.55V.
Not victron is stating that, its pylontech, which actually is a commercial BMS that has its own charge voltage cutoff as well as an over-voltage cutoff and the BMS is also an battery optimizing device like my electrodacus BMS too means steering the show which can interfere with victron if eg charge is set higher then 3.55V, its not the cells, its the BMS that requires to use 3.55V.

But others, very simple: have a look at the cheap Li-time on their webpage. Manufacturer recommends 14.2-14.6V but all their own chargers,MPPT,DC2DC they sell are programmed to 14.6V.
So 14.6V it will be and the main reasons are a)passive balancer is small b) no communication so you only know when they cut out earlier. Means if you charge to 14.2V and it cuts out at at 14.0V you have already a massive imbalance (eg the 200AH li-time around 4AH deviation facing a tiny 100mA passive balancer, how long to balance??? Month) which the internal balancer won't be able to handle anymore, means cut open time, warranty voided. On 14.6V if it cuts at 14,4V you know you have a slight imbalance a give the passive balancer more time in the upper knee to sort this.
Its not to maximize capacity, its to harden and robust your system andd see with this surprise boxes without communication early enough you have a problem.

Thats differnet with pylontech or epoch where you have access to the cell voltages and see of you get a runner/imblance. Here i would also use manufacturer spec but not the max. As you said correct 3,55V cutoff is a good value and actually the standard for dropins with communications as well as DIY ones. You see if your system stays in balance if not you can always go higher or lower balancer cut in voltage to give it more time.
Eg mine i started with 3.55V but deviation went slightly up over time, so i used 3,6V which got it stabilized. Then i went down step by step to 3.58V which is the lowest voltage the system is kept in balance with my usage and charge.
l.

You can run any charge voltage you want of course. But no one runs 14.6 charge voltage with a Victron system and Cerbo GX. It wont work. Try if you want. So on this we can agree to disagree. You will also be disagreeing with Victron.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by MV Intrigue

Andre at The Yacht Riggers in St Pete Florida is currently testing the Zues with the Epoch 460s and CerboGX. I think Arco is still working on a few things with Epoch. But he seems to feel it will happen soon. In theory it would certainly seem they should work. But of course I, along with many, will be waiting on the results and hopefully confirmation as well as some programming details. That would really be the last link in the chain.

Thank MV Intrigue, I've asked about this serveral times in various places, FB Dropin LFP, etc. and yours is the most informative, along with Ben Stein's early response. Please try to keep us appraised when you hear something positive. Thanks again!

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by rgleason

M/V Intrigue wrote:
I would be wonderful if someone could confirm that the Epoch BMS will properly control the Regulators, (preferably the Wakespeed WS500 and the Zeus).
.

It depends on whether the epoch batteries are running the correct CANbus protocol (usually sunny/SMA or some such). The Wakespeed (and zeus, I presume) are directly listening to the BMS messages, same as the Cerbo. The Cerbo is then translating/relaying that to VE.Bus to the inverter.

[s/v Jedi]

“I never had a HVC event”

No, that’s how it should be. But some …people are using the HVC as the end of charging system so they have it every cycle.

“Show me failed APD”

Normal boats with proper systems only get that after a lightning strike. But some…. people…. get everything destroyed, even their batteries. Look in a boatyard at the battery disposal site: plenty lithium cells there!

Of course they know they …. up (I really need to self censor with this post or I get another strike!) so they do not post this… try to hide it and do better next time.

[MerMike]

Originally Posted by rgleason

M/V Intrigue wrote:


It would be wonderful if someone could confirm that the Epoch BMS will properly control the Regulators, (preferably the Wakespeed WS500 and the Zeus).

If the inverter is properly responding, can we start to hope that the regulators will follow Epoch BMS instructions? It would be great to have a positive confirmation though.

Thanks.

Working on it. Arco promised an update on Monday but I haven't checked for it yet. Been in the middle of other things.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by hjohnson

It depends on whether the epoch batteries are running the correct CANbus protocol (usually sunny/SMA or some such). The Wakespeed (and zeus, I presume) are directly listening to the BMS messages, same as the Cerbo. The Cerbo is then translating/relaying that to VE.Bus to the inverter.

As I understand it from listening to an excellent youtube with Al (from Wakespeed), that the WS500 is using Canbus DVCC to communicate with the CerboGX. The CerboGX is in the middle communicating with both the battery and the regulator. This simplifies things somewhat, but the battery manufacturer has to confirm with the regulator engineers that the right signals are getting recieved. This has not happened yet for Epoch. Epoch was having trouble reaching Wakespeed engineering last I knew.


@MerMike: Thanks!

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by rgleason

As I understand it from listening to an excellent youtube with Al (from Wakespeed), that the WS500 is using Canbus DVCC to communicate with the CerboGX. The CerboGX is in the middle communicating with both the battery and the regulator. This simplifies things somewhat, but the battery manufacturer has to confirm with the regulator engineers that the right signals are getting recieved. This has not happened yet for Epoch. Epoch was having trouble reaching Wakespeed engineering last I knew.


@MerMike: Thanks!

I don't think so, Wakespeed's own documentation makes reference to SMA, my own wakespeed doesn't pay attention to the DVCC overrides I occasionally set in the Cerbo, and it also kept running when I rebooted the Cerbo while under way. I'm pretty confident that the Wakespeed is getting its signalling directly from my REC BMS.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by hjohnson

I don't think so, Wakespeed's own documentation makes reference to SMA, my own wakespeed doesn't pay attention to the DVCC overrides I occasionally set in the Cerbo, and it also kept running when I rebooted the Cerbo while under way. I'm pretty confident that the Wakespeed is getting its signalling directly from my REC BMS.

Yes, now I recall that Al mentioned SMA too. Perhaps there are two ways that Wakespeed can be controlled, direct from the BMS and alternatively, through the CerboGX using DVCC.



I will try to find the link.

Here is one about the REC BMS where I thought it was communicating using DVCC


Here is where Al discusses communication

WS500 Technical Deep Dive for Secondary Alternator Charging in Camper Van

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by rgleason

M/V Intrigue wrote:





Which I just viewed for the third time. Thank you M/V Intrigue.
I appears that those Epoch batteries are successfully using Canbus, DVCC to communicate via the CerboGX canbus connection, to control the Inverter.


I would be wonderful if someone could confirm that the Epoch BMS will properly control the Regulators, (preferably the Wakespeed WS500 and the Zeus).


If the inverter is properly responding, can we start to hope that the regulators will follow Epoch BMS instructions? It would be great to have a positive confirmation though.



Thanks.

If your DVCC works, mine doesn't and nobody incl. Victron support can find out why till today.
This whole communication relies in so many different services and so many undocumented dependencies, its eg standing nowwhere that you have to reset your VE direct communication by physically switching off the multi with its hardware power switch to reset VE direct.

This is all overly complex and its getting more complex everyday for a simple task of controlling and shutting down the alternator.

I had a fully robust eletrodacus BMS system where BMS controlls all as spider in the web and the settings in the charge sources are 2nd security backup in case BMS steering fails plus a BMV 712 as last resort emergency switch off in case BMS fails. I added Cerbo GX for pure monitoring of the system and be able to do some home automation steering on top.
The only change for that i needed to do on my system are that the 3 Victron 50/100 MPPT are now switched on/off by a battery protect and not by the VE-direct remote adapter cable as the ve-direct port is need to get data into cerbo. I just need to enable DVCC and voltage share due to mvader from Victron.
Well it doesn't work and when battery full and BMS switches off the charge sources (end of charge parameter for that) the MPPT don't see the battery volatge anymore and raise in voltage causing the BP220 going into overvoltage mode and BMS cannot switch the MPPTs on anymore because the BP220 is stuck in overvoltage protection. DVCC should fix that but it doesn't work in a fairly simple system with 3MPPT, 1 Multi, Phönix smart shorepower charger, BMV 712 (that delivers the battery data as battery monitor) and 2 BP220.
BmS is not connected as i wanted to have it seperate as proven simple robust system.

It all sounds simple on paper but in detail that victron ecosystem/Venus OS and the dozen of different standards patched together with expensive proprietary connectors/cable have so many undocumented dependencies that if you miss one eg a DVCC is simply not working and f.. up your whole system. Simple victron connect is working but well one of the MPPTs is not smart without BT and the VE-Direct port is needed for data delivery.
The answer of the victron afinados here is you bought the wrong MPPTs and spend another 1500Euro for the right ones that have a remote and VE-DIRECT but a) this doesn't garauntee that DVCC is working and b) its not the orgin of the problem, its the Venus OS system thats not doing what catalog, mvader via forum and specs stating to do.
And that is just one single problem of a dozen i am facing since just putting cerbo on top for pure monitoring...i defintly don't want any of that steering my system and happy i have my electrodacus BMS and a BMV that independently work as last resort.
I most likely get a another smart MPPT 50/100 because victron cannot deliver what they state!!! and do the voltage sync via the simple BT victron connect beeing completelyindoendent from the cerbo. And i only do this because i spent already 800Euro incl. Cerbo without a screen with all the adpaters and cables you need to get the data and its a bigger loss if i rip it all out and sell plus have nothing then spending 250Euro again and have finally the monitoring. But if i would know that from the beginning i wouldn't do it a 2nd time.

2nd never get a cerbo gx but instead a raspi with venus OS as you cannot even completely factory reset a cerbo GX or install a fresh venus OS over if something went wrong. That costed me already weeks of time and if kevin wingdrem (the developer of the gui mods) wouldn't help me fixing it remotely on superuser/system level getting a full new venus oS on, i would have a bricked useless cerbo.
a raspi you simply wipe the image on the SD card and start from scratch. I got the cerbo because i was told there is no real difference and its a cleaner install then raspi with adpaters (even being a more expensive).
well thats not the case either..one reason see above and 2nd reason nearly all addons/mods from community are only tested for the raspi. 3rd its super easy and cheap to get a touchscreen of any measurement that you want to work with raspi and venus OS BUT cerbo all aftermarket not 100% working unless you can do adaptions on system level (and don't know what you screw up by doing that) and the victron screens are too expensive of what they are...again all in the details.

[rgleason]

Youtube: Wakespeed WS500 Technical Deep Dive for Secondary Alternator Charging in Camper Van


Dropin Battery - 3 legged safety stool

37:30 First Leg of Stool: Box within a Box - Al talks about box within a box, the Wakespeed WS500 parameters are set to be within the Battery's parameters.
43:00 Second Leg of Stool: Use 3 Dropin Batteries.
44:00 Third Leg of Stool: Suppression 100v spike reduced to 35v, using Avalanche Diodes in or on the Alternator. In other words install a Balmar APM-12

Canbus Connected Batteries

Suppression still needed - (fuse blows, service switch off) 100v spike > 35v.
Advance notice to shutdown - 2 seconds, allows 3 messages, can shutdown in 400ms.
Situation: User turned off battery for storage, left alternator working, when van started it causes a load dump, stressing the avalanche diodes.
Run the brown ignition wire through the service switch to interrupt alternator.
Hide the service switch!
Full System design is essential.

7:30 1st tier: J1939 (DC source info), 2nd tier:RVC, Nmea2000, Protocol Canbus
10:00 What canbus does.
11:24 Important Battery information that is needed by regulator, charge goals. RVC messages.
15:28 Canbus protocols: Lithionics RVC, Victron SmartBattery VEreg/can -translate to RVC. Victron VEreg is based on Nmea2000 with added messages.
18:00 They have 13 different protocal/language libraries that can be used.
19:00 They have documentation for communications available on website.
19:30 Discussion about 1 speaker.

35:30 Working with Battery Manufacturers. Alternator is an inductor, causing spikes.
54:84 Start of Canbus Connections with Lithonics.
60:00 Start of RJ45 Connections with Victronics crossover cable.
1:01:00 Messaging Discussion
1:04:00 Battery shutdown immediately if there is a direct short.
1:15:45 Wakespeed is a Volt, current, temperature regulator that is proactive.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Youtube: Wakespeed WS500 Technical Deep Dive for Secondary Alternator Charging in Camper Van


Dropin Battery - 3 legged safety stool

37:30 First Leg of Stool: Box within a Box - Al talks about box within a box, the Wakespeed WS500 parameters are set to be within the Battery's parameters.
43:00 Second Leg of Stool: Use 3 Dropin Batteries.
44:00 Third Leg of Stool: Suppression 100v spike reduced to 35v, using Avalanche Diodes in or on the Alternator. In other words install a Balmar APM-12

Canbus Connected Batteries

Suppression still needed - (fuse blows, service switch off) 100v spike > 35v.
Advance notice to shutdown - 2 seconds, allows 3 messages, can shutdown in 400ms.
Situation: User turned off battery for storage, left alternator working, when van started it causes a load dump, stressing the avalanche diodes.
Run the brown ignition wire through the service switch to interrupt alternator.
Hide the service switch!
Full System design is essential.

7:30 1st tier: J1939 (DC source info), 2nd tier:RVC, Nmea2000, Protocol Canbus
10:00 What canbus does.
11:24 Important Battery information that is needed by regulator, charge goals. RVC messages.
15:28 Canbus protocols: Lithionics RVC, Victron SmartBattery VEreg/can -translate to RVC. Victron VEreg is based on Nmea2000 with added messages.
18:00 They have 13 different protocal/language libraries that can be used.
19:00 They have documentation for communications available on website.
19:30 Discussion about 1 speaker.

35:30 Working with Battery Manufacturers. Alternator is an inductor, causing spikes.
54:84 Start of Canbus Connections with Lithonics.
60:00 Start of RJ45 Connections with Victronics crossover cable.
1:01:00 Messaging Discussion
1:04:00 Battery shutdown immediately if there is a direct short.
1:15:45 Wakespeed is a Volt, current, temperature regulator that is proactive.

All relying on the cerbo does what it should do...well and thats not the case if you screw up on little detail.

[rgleason]

@CaptainRivet Boy is that a boat load of good information. Very sorry about the Cerbo problems but thank you for sharing it. This is why S/V Jedi likes "simple".

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by rgleason

@CaptainRivet Boy is that a boat load of good information. Very sorry about the Cerbo problems but thank you for sharing it. This is why S/V Jedi likes "simple".

Not only jedi likes simple.

My BMS controlles all via remote ports of devices which is tested to work past 10 years by victron if you use victron devices as they all have 10 years warranty. Only legacy load side is switched by a battery protect 220 smart and victron DC2DC converter via its remote isolating galvanically the expensive navigational equipement. and now the charge bus as a whole by a BP220 smart but still the single charge devices are shut off by its remote, again double security. Thats simple and avoiding high current contactors that are very expensive and prone to fail wherever i can.
BMS is carrying no current at all so cannot affected or destroyed by surge or spikes. The only thing that limits the current is the resolution of the main BMS shunt which is supporting max a 1000A shunt.
A BMV 712 works as last resort, 2nd source of battery data and switching all off and at the same time delivering battery data to Venus OS.
For a small boat like yours i would highly recommend to get a refurbished orgiginal Mitsubishi 115A alternator (is 200-250Euro)with internal temp control and the Nordkyn VSR200 regulator which fully controls the alternator without any modifications. That delivers save 70-90A continuous depending on ventilation in your engine room. It has also avalache diodes that survive a sudden shut off. Let the alternator charge to 13.6 or 13.8 and it will be cut off much earlier and let do solar the rest or just keep it there...easy, simple and cost effective solution that even works with the Volvo D+ problem as you keep the alternator original. If you wanna add still surge protection take a simple FLA with an argofet and trickle charge it with the smallest DC2DC charger you can find from the LFP.
Get always the Victron smart version for all as the BT connect works and is simple, the BMV712 delivers reference voltage for all charging devices and also synchronize charge. You can also very simple eg switch via victron control the load or charge side with every BT device to do some maintenance work, tests or repairs.

Add a raspi with venus OS just for remote monitoring via VRM and switching on shorepower charger or MPPTs remotely via its relay outputs that are also connected in SERIES into remotes so BMS must allow charge and only then you can remotly switch it on/off. The venus OS also gets ruvvi tags for bilge alarm, engine room temps alarm, fridge and freezer alarm, flow meter and tank sensors. The cerbo gets a NMEA cable so all data is on NMEA too so i bypass expensive NMEA tank/flow...sensors+cabling and have all data on the NMEA network too.
Thats my plan with cerbo and why i wanted it.

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

If your DVCC works, mine doesn't and nobody incl. Victron support can find out why till today.
This whole communication relies in so many different services and so many undocumented dependencies, its eg standing nowwhere that you have to reset your VE direct communication by physically switching off the multi with its hardware power switch to reset VE direct.

This is all overly complex and its getting more complex everyday for a simple task of controlling and shutting down the alternator.

I had a fully robust eletrodacus BMS system where BMS controlls all as spider in the web and the settings in the charge sources are 2nd security backup in case BMS steering fails plus a BMV 712 as last resort emergency switch off in case BMS fails. I added Cerbo GX for pure monitoring of the system and be able to do some home automation steering on top.
The only change for that i needed to do on my system are that the 3 Victron 50/100 MPPT are now switched on/off by a battery protect and not by the VE-direct remote adapter cable as the ve-direct port is need to get data into cerbo. I just need to enable DVCC and voltage share due to mvader from Victron.
Well it doesn't work and when battery full and BMS switches off the charge sources (end of charge parameter for that) the MPPT don't see the battery volatge anymore and raise in voltage causing the BP220 going into overvoltage mode and BMS cannot switch the MPPTs on anymore because the BP220 is stuck in overvoltage protection. DVCC should fix that but it doesn't work in a fairly simple system with 3MPPT, 1 Multi, Phönix smart shorepower charger, BMV 712 (that delivers the battery data as battery monitor) and 2 BP220.
BmS is not connected as i wanted to have it seperate as proven simple robust system.

It all sounds simple on paper but in detail that victron ecosystem/Venus OS and the dozen of different standards patched together with expensive proprietary connectors/cable have so many undocumented dependencies that if you miss one eg a DVCC is simply not working and f.. up your whole system. Simple victron connect is working but well one of the MPPTs is not smart without BT and the VE-Direct port is needed for data delivery.
The answer of the victron afinados here is you bought the wrong MPPTs and spend another 1500Euro for the right ones that have a remote and VE-DIRECT but a) this doesn't garauntee that DVCC is working and b) its not the orgin of the problem, its the Venus OS system thats not doing what catalog, mvader via forum and specs stating to do.
And that is just one single problem of a dozen i am facing since just putting cerbo on top for pure monitoring...i defintly don't want any of that steering my system and happy i have my electrodacus BMS and a BMV that independently work as last resort.
I most likely get a another smart MPPT 50/100 because victron cannot deliver what they state!!! and do the voltage sync via the simple BT victron connect beeing completelyindoendent from the cerbo. And i only do this because i spent already 800Euro incl. Cerbo without a screen with all the adpaters and cables you need to get the data and its a bigger loss if i rip it all out and sell plus have nothing then spending 250Euro again and have finally the monitoring. But if i would know that from the beginning i wouldn't do it a 2nd time.

2nd never get a cerbo gx but instead a raspi with venus OS as you cannot even completely factory reset a cerbo GX or install a fresh venus OS over if something went wrong. That costed me already weeks of time and if kevin wingdrem (the developer of the gui mods) wouldn't help me fixing it remotely on superuser/system level getting a full new venus oS on, i would have a bricked useless cerbo.
a raspi you simply wipe the image on the SD card and start from scratch. I got the cerbo because i was told there is no real difference and its a cleaner install then raspi with adpaters (even being a more expensive).
well thats not the case either..one reason see above and 2nd reason nearly all addons/mods from community are only tested for the raspi. 3rd its super easy and cheap to get a touchscreen of any measurement that you want to work with raspi and venus OS BUT cerbo all aftermarket not 100% working unless you can do adaptions on system level (and don't know what you screw up by doing that) and the victron screens are too expensive of what they are...again all in the details.

Sounds to me like you made your system more complicated than it needs to be and suffered for it.

First, the Electrodacus BMS might be great, but it doesn’t integrate with the victron ecosystem (yet). There are a lot of other BMSs that do work seamlessly, and automatically enable DVCC. This is part of the reason why we went with a REC BMS.

Second, if you were/are using the VE-Direct Remote adapter cable, that’s the wrong product for the job in an integrated system. All it can do is turn the MPPTs on or off, not actually command or send them the battery values and targets. For that you just need the plain VE.Direct cables into a cerbo, or the usb ve.direct converters into a raspberry pi.

If your bms is integrated, all it does to stop the charge sources is set the target voltage to whatever it wants at idle, and potentially the current limit to 0A. Your whole problem with the B220.

Basically these are all self inflicted problems caused by not trusting the technology and not letting it do what it’s supposed to do. Sorry man.