Explosions fires rescue at sea

[Montanan]

Here is a video of an ebike battery failing, many cells, each cooking off in sequence. Note how difficult it is to suppress even with water. A fire blanket is the best approach and could even provide for the opportunity to wrap and carry. Never attempt to directly handle a battery pack this is cooking off as it will intermittently flame, but one could move the battery if it is in a combustion proof container or wrapping because it will not emit flames to contact you.

This fire occurred outside, imagine if it happened inside when the hazardous gases would quickly smoke up the cabin.

Viewer discretion advised: I suspect there will be some of you no longer sleeping peacefully with lithium batteries on board.

Been there done this, just a part of our development hazards of dealing with electric powered tools and electric vehicles. Of course the bigger the battery the more hazardous the potential.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kVp_ppkk-sk

[Checkswrecks]

Originally Posted by Taipe

Thank you for that detailed information. I have been told that lithium-cobalt batteries are more likely to explode than other types. Is this so?

I led the airworthiness portion of the NTSB's investigation into the 787 battery and have been working lithium battery fires since. (see www.HowItBroke.com) The 787 batteries do have cobalt so the direct answer is "yes" to being more likely to have thermal runaway events. They do not typically "explode" because an explosion requires containment of pressure till an uncontrolled burst takes place and nearly all batteries have a way to vent.

To skybolter fwiw - Rather than "They were never able to fully determine what was causing the fires" the issue was that we found multiple potential sources for the initial failure and the report is not really clear about how one was the lead probability. This was partly intentional because we wanted everything to be addressed, rather than having the manufacturers (Boeing, Thales, Yuasa, and Yuasa's subcontractor) to simply make one minor change and declare they were done.

Originally Posted by Taipe

And is it difficult for the consumer to track down what type of lithium battery they have in their power tool?

The tools' specifications or MSDS sheets are usually able to tell the chemistry, but there are two issues. The first is that the descriptions are pretty generic and they won't tell you about the construction. If you will remember the Samsung Galaxy Note phone fires, those were well made cells but in a poor construction which could lead to damaging the cells to start the thermal runaways.

The second issue is that everybody in the battery industry is fighting a battle with counterfeit parts and altered designs that consumers never see. Unless the tool manufacturer is big and strong enough to have an in-depth quality control program which extends down into their sources (this is far beyond in their own factory) what a label on a cell says may not be what the cell actually is.

This latter issue is what bit Boeing and they are definitely what anybody would define as big and strong. They were not aware that a Yuasa supplier built the top part of the cell casings and left out a belleville (spring) washer so the terminal assembly could become loose. In the scheme of certification, this supplier was 5 layers down (FAA, Boeing Thales, Yuasa, supplier) so it was a bit like the old expression "for want of a horse shoe nail, the war was lost."

[Checkswrecks]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Here is a video of an ebike battery failing, many cells, each cooking off in sequence. Note how difficult it is to suppress even with water. A fire blanket is the best approach and could even provide for the opportunity to wrap and carry. Never attempt to directly handle a battery pack this is cooking off as it will intermittently flame, but one could move the battery if it is in a combustion proof container or wrapping because it will not emit flames to contact you.

This fire occurred outside, imagine if it happened inside when the hazardous gases would quickly smoke up the cabin.

Viewer discretion advised: I suspect there will be some of you no longer sleeping peacefully with lithium batteries on board.

Been there done this, just a part of our development hazards of dealing with electric powered tools and electric vehicles. Of course the bigger the battery the more hazardous the potential.

Thanks for sharing the great video because I'd like to add this to my classes to fire fighters. It's about the size of those used in electric lawnmowers, tools, toys, and office UPS power supplies. People see the small size of those and assume they are not big enough to do much damage.

[TeddyDiver]

A couple months ago Li-Ion drill battery self ignited at work, maybe 50% charge as it was used a few hours after loading. Quite scary, anyway for my coworker who holded the thing when it allmost exploded in his hand.

[Clivevon]

Thanks to OP for sharing this. Glad you are safe. Just gone online to buy an ammo case - I will be moving my spare batteries out of their plastic organiser.. Now need some strong small plastic bags.
So, what sort of batteries go into modern EPIRBs?

[Montanan]

Short video showing the proper method of deploying a fire blanket to suppress a fire. Note especially how the blanket is wrapped around one's hands to provide a shield as you approach to close proximity and smoother the fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q24rOhBseDk

[dannc]

I have multiple Dewalt cordless tools that were powered by non Lithium batteries. The batteries died one by one until there was only one left. One day I needed to drill a hole, so I took the battery of the charger, popped it on the drill, made a hole and put the battery back on the charger as usual.

Went and sat down to do some computer work and a bit later I started smelling an electrical burning smell. Very faint. I got up and started sniffing and looking. Eventually I found the smoke/smell was from the battery and it was smoking like a chimney. I unplugged the charger, gambled that the battery would not blow up on me, and tossed it outside on the driveway.

The charger was under some wall cabinets, so if the battery had caught fire, we might have lost the house.

This was not a Lithium battery so other battery chemistries can have issues too. Never replaced the batteries and just use my corded tools now...

Later,
Dan

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by Clivevon

Thanks to OP for sharing this. Glad you are safe. Just gone online to buy an ammo case - I will be moving my spare batteries out of their plastic organiser.. Now need some strong small plastic bags.
So, what sort of batteries go into modern EPIRBs?

Most EPIRBs utilize primary lithium batteries, non-rechargeable batteries. Rechargeable batteries are called secondary batteries.

https://www.sartech.com/epirb-servicing-faqs

"Changing batteries in an EPIRB is not rocket science. Given the necessary spare parts and instructions, any competent person could do it. However there are risks involved in handling high rate lithium primary batteries, and there is also a worry that the beacon could be damaged and fail to work in an emergency. Sensitive electronics can be damaged by static electricity, for example, and the failure may not occur for some time afterwards. Very few beacons have been designed for user battery replacement, with separately sealed battery packs that avoid any danger of damage to the beacon electronics. The McMurdo Fastfind & Fastfind MAX PLBs are an example of this (N.B. not the later Fastfind 200 series).

The newest EPIRB models use battery packs made up from small camera cells which are available in the shops, but most EPIRBs in use today have battery packs made up from large primary lithium cells (typically "D" size) which have the potential in the wrong hands to cause a serious fire or explosion. It is particularly dangerous if well intentioned engineers get hold of these cells and try to make them up into battery packs by soldering them together. This should never be attempted. Properly assembled lithium packs use resistance welded nickel connecting strips, and electronic fuses to make them safe even if accidentally short circuited.

Even experienced marine electronics service engineers are not approved to carry out EPIRB battery changing until they have attended a training course, and acquired a minimum level of necessary test equipment."

MY EPIRB PASSES ITS SELF-TEST. CAN I LEAVE IT FOR A YEAR OR TWO?
EPIRB batteries gradually lose their stored energy over time. A small amount is lost every time the TEST button is pressed, however the biggest loss is through "self-discharge". You will be familiar with this effect if you pick up a torch which has been left in a drawer for a year or more. Most likely it will be very weak or completely dead. Lithium batteries hold their power very well, but give no warning of their impending demise. Unlike alkaline batteries used in torches, their voltage drops off very rapidly at the end of life, so that they will deliver full power (and pass the self-test) right up to the last few minutes. So pressing the TEST button can give no indication of the remaining capacity.

Up until the expiry date marked on the EPIRB, then you can be very confident that there is sufficient capacity remaining in the battery to power the EPIRB for 48 hours at -20degC. However even this period is no more than an estimate, as the battery self-discharge is highly temperature dependent. An EPIRB which spends a lot of its time at 30 degC will lose capacity twice as fast as one kept at 20 degC. At 40 degC, the self-discharge doubles again.

So in conclusion, if your EPIRB is kept in a warm climate, you should certainly make sure it is serviced before the expiry date is reached. In a cool climate, there is less of a worry, and you can get the job done at the next convenient time - e.g. during the winter season. But don't leave it too long, or you might find that more time has passed than you thought, and you will regret it once you are in that life raft!

IS IT BETTER TO BUY A NEW ONE? PLBs ARE MUCH CHEAPER!
Like most electronic products, the technology moves on, and the latest EPIRBs are probably half the size half the cost of those bought 10 years ago. The older EPIRBs use bigger batteries and cost more to service. So you should consider the service cost compared to the cost of a new EPIRB. Most likely it will be economic to get your EPIRB serviced after 5 years, but at 10 years the economics may point ot upgrading to a new one - especially if you are attracted by new features such as integrated GPS, or the smaller size makes it easier to mount on your new boat! We offer a £50 trade-in discount against certain new models which can tip the balance on this decision. Think carefully before deciding to replace and EPIRB with a cheaper PLB. PLBs are made smaller to make them easier to carry, but they must be manually activated and held out of the water. They have half the operating time, and some do not even float!

Global alerting and initial location
EPIRBs (Emergency Position Indicating Radio Beacons) and PLBs (Personal Locator Beacons) transmit a 406MHz distress alert via the COSPAS-SARSAT satellite network to notify national rescue forces of the identity and initial location of a vessel or person in imminent danger.

In most cases, the alert will be detected within a matter of minutes, but in polar regions or where there is a poor view of the sky, there could be a delay of up to 4 hours for the signal to be picked up by a low level orbiting satellite.

GPS equipped EPIRBs or PLBs can send an accurate location with the alerting signal, so the rescue forces will know the initial location to within about 100 metres. For EPIRBs or PLBs without GPS (or where the GPS is unable to get a fix due to an obstructed view of the sky), then initial location will be performed by orbiting satellites. This could take up to 4 hours depending on location, and with a typical accuracy of 2-5 km.

[roverhi]

Really important heads up. Have built up a fairly good range of 12v Milwaukee tools in working on the boat and never thought about explosive possibilities. They are only 12v so probably not as much of an explosion worry as 18v. Still will take more core storing them in the future.

Should have been aware of the fire/explosion possibility of the larger capacity 18v batteries as they can't be shipped by air to our home in Kona. Had to wait more than a month for the slow boat when ordering a battery powered 18v string trimmer.

[billgewater]

I assume (surely?) that lithium batteries in cars do not have these problems. These are really seriously large capacity batteries in situations where vibration, collisions etc. are the norm. So why don't we hear about ignition with these battery banks?
If car lithium batteries are relatively safe then why isn't that technology transferable to boats?

[Steve_C]

I have about every 20V DeWalt tool they make, and some the tools and/or just batteries have been dropped from second story roofs onto rocks or concrete. They have been seriously abused for years with never a fault. I don't know if they are made to a higher standard but they are made for commercial and industrial use.

However no matter if they are built stronger or not, this thread has certainly made me re-think how I would store them and all my other batteries onboard.

Really glad no was hurt, this could have been REALLY bad.

Thanks for sharing!

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by billgewater

I assume (surely?) that lithium batteries in cars do not have these problems. These are really seriously large capacity batteries in situations where vibration, collisions etc. are the norm. So why don't we hear about ignition with these battery banks?
If car lithium batteries are relatively safe then why isn't that technology transferable to boats?

The car batteries are constructed to be very robust and are sturdily packaged. They will at times burn and whenever an electric vehicle has been in an accident it requires tremendous caution. There are emergency power isolation devices which emergency responders now how to access and which can be easily pulled to break the connection to the batteries so as to allow the vehicle to be touched with minimal risk of high voltage shock. It is common for electric vehicles to combust if heavily damaged and fires can erupt, days or weeks after the accident and begin to burn and to erupt anew. It is risky to salvage tow a damaged electric car as it can begin burning at any moment and they need to be very carefully impounded because they may erupt long after the accident. Specialized training and equipment is required to service and repair electric vehicles, not something a typical Piston Head has the competency to deal with.

But then it is common for vehicles to have gasoline fires, less so with diesel with its much different flash point.

Vehicle batteries operate at much higher voltages than do boat battery banks, typically from 350 to 700 volts, whereas boat battery banks operate at say 12 to 24 to 48 volts. I hate using low voltage battery banks for powering large load motors and appliances. High current is very problematic as to heat and conductor sizing, would much prefer to use high or even moderate voltages [110 V; 220 V].

It is a pleasure to make motors and controller to power full sized automobiles, eBuses, eTrucks, it is harder to deal with low voltage vehicles such as golf carts, utility carts and eBikes.

[NorthCoastJoe]

It makes me think about the dive boat fire. I have a full set of cordless tools also. My batteries ( 6 ) are kept in the charger/conditioner unless I am using them. Time to rethink that way of storing them.

[er9]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Here is a video of an ebike battery failing, many cells, each cooking off in sequence. Note how difficult it is to suppress even with water. A fire blanket is the best approach and could even provide for the opportunity to wrap and carry. Never attempt to directly handle a battery pack this is cooking off as it will intermittently flame, but one could move the battery if it is in a combustion proof container or wrapping because it will not emit flames to contact you.

This fire occurred outside, imagine if it happened inside when the hazardous gases would quickly smoke up the cabin.

Viewer discretion advised: I suspect there will be some of you no longer sleeping peacefully with lithium batteries on board.

Been there done this, just a part of our development hazards of dealing with electric powered tools and electric vehicles. Of course the bigger the battery the more hazardous the potential.

thanks for all the good info. I definitely have a new found respect for these batteries and will be addressing all of mine on board the next trip to the boat this weekend.

[Cpt Pat]

When charging portable devices containing lithium ion batteries (handheld radio, Iridium tracker, flashlights, etc.), I place the devices in my stainless steel sink. That provides at least some containment and heat sinking (no pun intended) if a fire does start. It's also close to my companionway hatch, and I have tongs for flinging the burning object overboard. It's an imperfect solution, but the only one available.