Is it possible to protect Balmar alt while using battleborn drop ins?

[witzgall]

Chris from Balmar here.

The foolproof way to protect alternators with lithium batteries is to use batteries with a communicating BMS. For example, some Lithionics batteries can be ordered with the FCC option. FCC stands for Field Control Circuit. It will shut off our MC-614, 618 or 624 (All lithium appropriate) BEFORE the battery shuts down.

This of course does not always protect against something like a battery switch opened, or failed, especially if contact is repeatedly made and broken.

All of Balmar's alternators are designed to protect against some events of this kind. The key is using high quality diodes in the alternator, something we have been doing for years. This can be in the form of either high voltage diodes, or avalanche diodes. We use one of the other in all of our alternators. Getting our alternators to fail in the lab is hard, but we know if does happen in the field.

To this end, Balmar will be shortly introducing a Alternator Protection Module, or APM. More details are forthcoming, but it borrows the very best protection developed for the automotive industry. It meets ISO7637-2 for Surge Capability and ISO16750-2 Load-Dump Surge Specification. The APM can dissipate peak power of up to 4600 watts, and peak forward current of up to 600 amps.
The Balmar APM excels in both short duration and longer duration spikes, where other products will fail.

It should be available by the end of the year.

Chris

[witzgall]

Chris from Balmar here. I think you are asking about the TSP product. It will protect the alternator from spikes originating from External devices, such as a engine starter, but NOT from a disconnect. Please see my previous post.

Chris

Originally Posted by Mg451

P.s. im looking at the balmar zap stop. The sacrifical diode. Not completly sure how or if this can factor into the equasion. But my thoughts are to some how add it to my main pannel to protect my electronics ratger the protect my alt? Any input on that?

[Mg451]

Thanks chris. If i were to use the tsp between my main breaker pannel and ground would i protect my main pannel ( and everything on it)?

[Ween]

following

[witzgall]

We have never certified or tested the TSP to protect electronics, presumably what you want to protect. It certainly could help, but there is no way to say "Yes, it will protect all you have from everything that could happen."

Chris

Originally Posted by Mg451

Thanks chris. If i were to use the tsp between my main breaker pannel and ground would i protect my main pannel ( and everything on it)?

[Mg451]

Sorry to bombard ya w questions. Do you happen to know how much current and how long it takes to open? I might not fully understand its operation but if i were to put it in line with my positive to the pannel. The diode is a a sorta electrical check valve for electric(?) so itll open if theres a spike back in curent? Thus isolating my pannel? For example if im able to open circuit my charging while the alternators running. The surge would pop the diode and isolate my pannel? Just wondering how much it would take to fry my mfd and other lectronics and if that is in the ballpark if it.

[CarlF]

People are making the BMS issue far too complicated.

1. If your battery switch fails, you will blow your alternator diodes. Has nothing to do with Lithium and has been happening for 50 years.

2. If your charge source regulators are properly programmed (absorption 14.4v or less) your BMS should never disconnect the battery while the alternator is running.

3. It’s always been a good idea to have a zap-stop or Sterling alternator protector because you never know when some idiot will turn off the battery switch.

4. Start AGM or flooded batteries are perfectly happy when charged at drop in Lithium charge spec (13.5float, 14.4 absorption). Since start batteries are generally close to fully charged, their life will not be shortened by slightly wrong charge voltages

5. Internally regulated alternators should not be connected to lithium batteries. But a Balmar 614/618 or Wakespeed regulator with a temperature sensor on the alternator gives you all the tools you need to not overload the alternator.

6. If your alternator is externally regulated and limited to 14.4v, then you don’t need a dc-dc charger. Just parallel the start and house banks with a VSR or relay. This will provide a buffer should the BMS shut down - which again, should never happen in a properly programmed system.

[Mg451]

I was wondering id the tsp could be used out of place to protect my dc pannel. In case some one turns of the switch etc.

[Tenedos]

Originally Posted by Mg451

Thats my findings. Moral of the story. Is it does work until it doesnt. And from what balmar told me it shouldnt but it did and does.so either im confused misinformed or some of both...

Thanks Mg451, this is a very useful follow-up. Would you mind sharing a basic diagram of your setup?

I was planning a setup quite similar to yours, with the exception of having a 30A DC-DC charger from house battery to starter battery. Do you think it would make a difference?

[Mg451]

A do have a 30 amp duo charger from house to a lead start battery in there too. I will send you a pic of my wiring diagram its hand written and sloppy, but all there. Remind me Monday if i dont post it. I have a 3 switch pannel on my breaker pannel that has alternator on and off. Small engine mode on and off, and dc charger on and off. By cutting power to the brown wire on the regulator it turns off. With my bank im full often so i turn off the alt to get all the h.p from the motor as possible. P.s. on youtube ryan and sophie sailing have a pretty good video on how to use dropins with non talking bms. Their system is similar to mine if i remember coreectly. They use diff brands though.

[rgleason]

OP wrote;

The only way to guarentee bb and balmars is to charge a lead battery and use dc to dc charges to your lithium. This negated alot of the bennifits of lithium. This is just bb and balmars. Ive been told by balmar youd need a contact to turn off the regulator before it dumped. The mc614 doesnt have that capability. ( i think)

No. The balmar regulators are fine to use, the problem is the battleborn lifepo do not have an bms advanced external signal that they are being disconnected to shut down FCC of the regulator! The balmar advice is correct. Dont get this confused.

[rgleason]

Thanks for sharing this.
I don't believe you had a FLA directly connected to the alternator did you?
(Duo charge)

And it appears the APD did not work. Are you sure you had it wired correctly?

The new Balmar APD sounds good to me, but I would still have a small tractor battery connected for spike protection and to provide power to instruments when lifepo shut down.

I would set the balmar regulator to LiFePo settings and I would not use Battleborn max voltage if I were using those. It is higher than 13.8 volts.

Just let the tractor battery alone, but every once in awhile disconnect it and charge it up with solar or shore power, but reconnect it when motoring.

I've had a zap stop on our alt for years. Dont know if it has helped, but we are just using fla right now.

[witzgall]

Chris from Balmar here.
Some comments in-line:
People are making the BMS issue far too complicated.

1. If your battery switch fails, you will blow your alternator diodes. Has nothing to do with Lithium and has been happening for 50 years.

This was true 50 years ago, but not with a quality alternator, using either 400v diodes or avalanche diodes. A switch failing still may blow the diodes, but it not a given anymore.

2. If your charge source regulators are properly programmed (absorption 14.4v or less) your BMS should never disconnect the battery while the alternator is running.

true

3. It’s always been a good idea to have a zap-stop or Sterling alternator protector because you never know when some idiot will turn off the battery switch.

The "Zapstop" product has been off of the market for many years. But yes, protect the alternator. I would humbly add our forthcoming APM to the list.

4. Start AGM or flooded batteries are perfectly happy when charged at drop in Lithium charge spec (13.5float, 14.4 absorption). Since start batteries are generally close to fully charged, their life will not be shortened by slightly wrong charge voltages

Mostly true, depending on the usage.

5. Internally regulated alternators should not be connected to lithium batteries. But a Balmar 614/618 or Wakespeed regulator with a temperature sensor on the alternator gives you all the tools you need to not overload the alternator.

True

6. If your alternator is externally regulated and limited to 14.4v, then you don’t need a dc-dc charger. Just parallel the start and house banks with a VSR or relay. This will provide a buffer should the BMS shut down - which again, should never happen in a properly programmed system.


Here is where I disagree. In my experience (I cruised with lithium back in 2011+ and of course what I have learned in the industry since) a DC-to DC device to the start battery, such as our Digital Duo charge or another device, is the very best way to do this. Every battery is charged at their optimum voltage, the cabling is simpler and safer.


Chris

[Mg451]

Rg yes i do have the sterling device wired in with a audio alarm. Ill. Have to double check it. But it did not save the alternator. I was told that they rarely do work(?)
2 senarios. It partially saved the alternator because i was still able to get 50 amps out of it. Or the switch when it momentairly opend closed so fast. It was able to endure it. It shorted out 2x before i could shut down.

[SteveSails]

Just returned from a 3 day cruise using 2 BB lithium, Balmar 100A alternator, 614 regulator and a duo charger for the LA start battery...no problems.
And here's why, the 614 regulator was set for 14.4 max, belt manager set to reduce output to 80%, and max alternator temp of 90C. With a cold alternator and batteries down to 20% it would start at about 75A and gradually reduce to ~65A as the alternator heated up and stay there until 90% charged, a game changer over AGMs.
I think the problems Mg451 had were due to trying to push an already hot alternator to get the last 10% charge. It did fry the alternator, as in thermally fried. IMHO no need to push to 100%, unlike AGM Li is quite happy sitting at 90%.
Totally agree with the comments from witzgall, set your regulator properly and the BMS should never shut down.