LFP batteries now proven to be 100% safe

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

"Does not explode" is a far cry from "100%" safe.

Yes, I am being pedantic. I get the point. They are much safer in many ways. The title still seems too absolute. In this age of click bait, headlines like that make me suspicious.

I know, this is the deeply rooted fear of lithium batteries. I think it started when cellphones started killing people when they explode when held to their ears.

It’s more than “does not explode”. They also don’t start a fire. And when you put a flame to it, they burn less than a piece of the boat they are installed in.

Is a pine 2x4 safe?

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

"Does not explode" is a far cry from "100%" safe.

Yes, I am being pedantic. I get the point. They are much safer in many ways. The title still seems too absolute. In this age of click bait, headlines like that make me suspicious.

Just a question regarding your doubt regarding the 100% safe aspect, what basis do you use to say they are not 100% safe?

Maybe a title like "LFP and LYP are so much safer than lead acid of any type" and then in the text explain what each chemistry actually is and how many different varieties of lead acid batteries are on the market and what makes them unsafe compared to either of these two lithium chemistries.
If there was interest, then a follow up with which lithium chemistries would not be regarded as safe for a house battery .......

If I said LTO batteries were considered to be so safe they implant them in human bodies to power life saving devices, would you be sceptical about that as well?

T1 Terry

[goboatingnow]

I agree with Terry. The title should be LFP and LTO are the safest battery on board.

[ChrisJHC]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

if someone posted "the sun comes up daily" here there would be disagreement

Well, if you were to say that the sun comes up every 24 hours then I would disagree!

It does vary by a handful of seconds over the year.

[Tetepare]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I know, this is the deeply rooted fear of lithium batteries.

Well, it has been drilled into the sailing mindset. Aside from the insurance companies limiting coverage, and posting warnings and photos of burned up boats, there is the (as I understand it) complexity of supporting Li so they don't light on fire- BMS, temperature monitors, sometimes fans, etc.

So now if Li (whatever version) is as safe as any battery it would be good to know.

Playing devil's advocate, if Li is so safe, I should be able to pull out my LA and replace with Li, using my good old 1994 vintage AC-DC charger and skip the new Victron charger and BMS. Right?

Well, I have six months to figure it out so I personally don't need a final answer today. Or this year.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Well, it has been drilled into the sailing mindset. Aside from the insurance companies limiting coverage, and posting warnings and photos of burned up boats, there is the (as I understand it) complexity of supporting Li so they don't light on fire- BMS, temperature monitors, sometimes fans, etc.

So now if Li (whatever version) is as safe as any battery it would be good to know.

Playing devil's advocate, if Li is so safe, I should be able to pull out my LA and replace with Li, using my good old 1994 vintage AC-DC charger and skip the new Victron charger and BMS. Right?

Well, I have six months to figure it out so I personally don't need a final answer today. Or this year.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Tetepare

Well, it has been drilled into the sailing mindset. Aside from the insurance companies limiting coverage, and posting warnings and photos of burned up boats, there is the (as I understand it) complexity of supporting Li so they don't light on fire- BMS, temperature monitors, sometimes fans, etc.

So now if Li (whatever version) is as safe as any battery it would be good to know.

Playing devil's advocate, if Li is so safe, I should be able to pull out my LA and replace with Li, using my good old 1994 vintage AC-DC charger and skip the new Victron charger and BMS. Right?

Well, I have six months to figure it out so I personally don't need a final answer today. Or this year.

Replace with Lifepo4 chemistry dropins yes . Just don't leave them on float . ( they hate that) Forget everything you know about how to care for batteries and learn lfp ways.
The average automotive battery charger tops at 14.6vdc. Which = 3.65vpc.

[Nicholson58]

Thanks for this Jedi

I haven’t been here in a while but this guy had good links to blacks that conducted brutal destructive testing on these batteries.

https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

It’s a wonder that car makers and home solar installers are still using the fire prone old technology

[Nicholson58]

By the way. Lithium is coming to Roxy this season.

[stvnm]

Originally Posted by StuM

Very misleading Subject line!


Nothing proven here.
Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


"take it as what it is: My observations while watching our Technical Department do some great work."
"But, the research and testing may show us that we must take this discussion to the test labs for another round."

Absolutely. Truly unfortunate that someone in leadership position would spread anecdotes instead than scientific knowledge, and add a little declaimer at the end. Embarrassing. I can't think of any engineer worth their salt singing off such a communication.

[CharlieJ]

Where does the ABYC President's letter say that "LFP batteries now proven to be 100% safe"? Click bait.

You must understand, first and foremost, ABYC exists to make a profit. Anyone who argues otherwise is just fooling themselves, or actively trying to deceive the public.

You could not be more misinformed on this subject.

[TPG]

It will be interesting to see this subject mature over time. In my mind, the benefits of Lifepo4 far outweigh the drawbacks.

Of course, I would only buy quality (and proven) batteries and only use best practices in installation. But I'd like to think we all would given what's at stake.

I've seen at least 2 fires in my experience as a direct result of shoddy electrical work that led to boats burning to the waterline.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by TPG

It will be interesting to see this subject mature over time. In my mind, the benefits of Lifepo4 far outweigh the drawbacks.

Of course, I would only buy quality (and proven) batteries and only use best practices in installation. But I'd like to think we all would given what's at stake.

I've seen at least 2 fires in my experience as a direct result of shoddy electrical work that led to boats burning to the waterline.

But was it a direct result of the battery failing ?
Nope just simple idiots thinking they knew what they were doing with marine electrical.
Ever seen a wire nut on a boat? If so run .

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

if someone posted "the sun comes up daily" here there would be disagreement

It doesn't come up, the rotation of the earth relative to the sun exposes and hides progressing parts of the earth to direct line of sight of the sun.

As seen by an observer on earth it appears that the sun rises and sets unless of course it turns out the earth is flat or perhaps some other geometry.

[GrowleyMonster]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

It's great that this type of research is being done, and that the results continue to look good. But the title of the thread still elicits skepticism.

Nothing is 100% safe. Drop a wrench across the battery terminals and see what happens. Apparently it would be fair to say that LFP batteries are as safe as, or safer than, LA batteries. Good to know. Thanks!

I agree. Nothing is 100% safe. I also readily concede that with safe use practices and a good BMS, good quality Lithium cells are very safe. NOT 100% safe. That is a misleading statement. That a testing program was unsuccessful in making batteries explode or burn is valuable information, and indicates a higher level of safety than what has been thought in the past, but not necessarily a 100% safe rating.