LFP+BMS+Ultracapacitors? or (2)(LFP+BMS)?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Another thread turned into an LTO battery thread.

He’s been banging on about LTO batteries for years and years.
He knows nothing about LTO batteries he just regurgitates the information.

It’s like me reading Jedi posts and then giving out advice to all and sundry.

He doesn’t have LTO batteries on his boat…. There are other members on here that do and are much more qualified to give experience.

Can’t we have him banned or something… it’s ridiculous!

I expicitly said i open an extra thread for LTO starter in 2 or 3days due to being busy and only commented his install plan where using any sort of lead makes simply no sense and has no advantage at all, not even being cheap. Its rgleason who posted all the LTO stuff not me.

Fuss: You never replied about your experiences with Lithium and installs in gerneral and what background you have to make qualified comments or judge about qualifications. I stated mine couple of times and ask about yours and never got a reply.
Taking into account that you even couldn't name the wattage of your starter and claiming 280EVE can do 1400CCA tells me you are sitting in the glasshouse and throwing stones and have actualy no glue what your talking about...so be quiet or proof that you are qualified to make such statements.
@mods: Sorry mods but i cannot be nice and friendly anymore here about a poster/user Fuss who is attacking me constantly.

And yes there are more qualified user like me eg TerryT1 or Jedi who is an EE and i learned a lot from them by also discussing and Jedi's reference diagramms are really good as a base for every install.

[rgleason]

Fuss, thanks for your post, but you should be kinder to CaptRivet. We all have our bees in the bonnet, and I don't have any deep experience actually working with LFP as others have, but this is close to a personnel attack on him, so perhaps apologize and listen to him. You might even learn something or find a new way of looking at a problem, or just don't read his posts, or hide his posts from view. I've done that to one person and he's never bothered me after that. But whatever you do, don't violate the rules of this forum.


CaptRivet I look forward to seeing your new thread and learning more about the advantage of LTO and how you would do your setup.

[rgleason]

What is the typical energy density of LFP, LTO and FLA Batteries?

1. LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) Batteries: 90-160 Wh/kg1. However, some manufacturers like CATL and BYD have achieved energy densities of 125-160 Wh/kg1 and 150 Wh/kg1 respectively. Moreover, advancements in technology have led to LFP cells achieving energy densities of up to 200 Wh/kg with SVolt and potentially 230 Wh/kg with Gotion2.
2. LTO (Lithium Titanate) Batteries: 60-110 Wh/kg3. However, some lithium-titanate batteries have a volumetric energy density of up to 177 Wh/L3.
3. FLA (Flooded Lead Acid) Batteries: 30-40 Wh/kg4. However, it’s important to note that within the lead-acid family, FLA batteries have the most capacity for a given size or weight. <---(What???)

What is the typical maximum charge rate of LFP, LTO and FLA batteries?

1. LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) Batteries: 0.5 to 0.8C1. This means that the battery will charge from 0% to 100% in about two hours at 0.5C and perhaps closer to 1-1/2 hours at 0.8C1.
2. LTO (Lithium Titanate) Batteries: 10C and maximum charge at 20C. So, a 40 Ah cell will typically fast charge at 400 A and have a max allowable charge rate of 800A2.
3. FLA (Flooded Lead Acid) Batteries: 0.1C (10 to 13% of the C20 amp hour rating). For example, a 100 AH rated battery max charge current is 10-13 amps.

What are the typical highest temperatures recommended for environmental or climate temperature for LFP, LTO and FLA batteries

1. LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) Batteries: -20°C to 60°C (-4°F to 140°F), but optimal performance is achieved between 0°C and 45°C (32°F and 113°F)123.
2. LTO (Lithium Titanate) Batteries: around -40°C to +85°C. However, they can safely survive temperatures up to 105°C (221°F) inside of ovens.
3. FLA (Flooded Lead Acid) Batteries: 50℉ - 85℉6. However, it’s important to note that cycle life loss of ~50% is expected for every 10˚C over 25˚C (77˚F)7.

What user abuse wil typically ruin LFA, LTO and FLA batteries?

1. LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) Batteries:

• Overcharging: High voltage (15 volts or higher) can damage an LFP battery.
• Over-discharging: Over discharging an LFP battery to the point where it turns off is also potentially damaging. (below 5% is bad.)
• Extreme Temperatures: If used in extreme temperatures (below freezing or high heat), the performance of your LFP may begin to degrade.

2. LTO (Lithium Titanate) Batteries:

• Deep Discharge or Short Circuits: LTO has extremely high inherent safety as it can withstand electrical abuse such as deep discharge or short circuits.
• Mechanical Damage: LTO batteries can also withstand mechanical damage.

3. FLA (Flooded Lead Acid) Batteries:

• Fast Charging: Fast charging FLA batteries can potentially cause damage. This is because FLA batteries have chemistry that takes time for the charge to spread. Therefore, there may be an excessively high charge in the electrolyte near the battery terminals but not yet uniformly distributed throughout the battery.
• Discharge below 50% reduces longevity.
• Low SOC results in sulfation and reduction in capacity.
• Charging above 80%SOC is much much slower.

What is the safest battery LFP, LTO or FLA?

Both LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) and LTO (Lithium Titanate) batteries are considered safe and stable compared to other lithium-ion battery chemistries1.

1. LFP batteries are known for their safety features, including a low risk of overheating and excellent thermal and chemical stability. They are less likely to experience thermal runaway, a situation where an increase in temperature changes the conditions in a way that causes a further increase in temperature.
2. LTO batteries are particularly safe due to their low risk of thermal runaway and explosion, making them ideal for high-risk applications such as electric vehicles and aerospace1. They can easily withstand 20-30,000 cycles, which, depending on the operational profile, can be up to 20 years and in some cases even longer3.
3. FLA (Flooded Lead Acid) batteries, on the other hand, have been around for a long time and are generally considered safe when used properly. However, they do contain corrosive acid and can produce explosive gases if overcharged, so they require careful handling and maintenance.

In conclusion, while all three types of batteries have their safety features, LTO batteries are often highlighted for their exceptional safety characteristics1. However, the safety of a battery can also depend on its use case and the safety measures implemented in its design and management system. Always refer to the manufacturer’s guidelines for safe use and handling of batteries.

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Fuss: You never replied about your experiences with Lithium and installs in gerneral and what background you have to make qualified comments or judge about qualifications. I stated mine couple of times and ask about yours and never got a reply.
Taking into account that you even couldn't name the wattage of your starter and claiming 280EVE can do 1400CCA tells me you are sitting in the glasshouse and throwing stones and have actualy no glue what your talking about...so be quiet or proof that you are qualified to make such statements.

From 2012 - 2018 sole engineer 300 ton 35 meter ketch with up to 25 guests.
The 280AH EVE 12v battery has now been starting the 135hp 6L diesel through the 3500watt starter for a year with no loss of balance and no signs of degradation.

[Fuss]

Yes rgleason you are right.


CaptainRivet , I apologise for writing that you should be banned and that the constant turning posts into LTO thread drifts is ridiculous.


I am sorry.

[rgleason]

I got a slightly different answer later:

The typical energy density of LFP, LTO and FLA batteries are as follows:

• LFP (Lithium Iron Phosphate) Batteries: LFP batteries have a high energy density of 90-160 Wh/kg 1 and 325 Wh/L 2. They are cost-effective, safe, and long-lasting 3.
• LTO (Lithium Titanate) Batteries: LTO batteries have a low energy density of 30-110 Wh/kg 4 and 177 Wh/L 5. They are fast-charging, stable, and durable 6.
• FLA (Flooded Lead Acid) Batteries: FLA batteries have a low energy density of 30-40 Wh/kg 7 and 60-75 Wh/L 7. They are cheap, rugged, and reliable when maintained properly 8.

Please note that these are typical values and can vary based on the specific battery model and manufacturer’s recommendations. Always refer to the manufacturer’s guidelines for battery specifications and performance.

[rgleason]

@Fuss Thanks. I look forward to your contributions and hope you will remain interested and involved.

LTO appeals because:

1. Safety appears to be very good.
2. 10C charge rate is appealing for Alternator charging (protect the alt).
3. Operating Environment up to 85C (185F) Will be in port cockpit locker next to engine with 3/4" plywood between. For LFP optimal performance must be 32°F and 113°F.
4. Operates Environment down to -40C (-40F), that is low. Most other batteries start to become useless at about -10C (14F). This can be a huge advantage in cold climates. It does go below 14F in USA RI. No self-heating pad and can leave in boat.
5. Energy Density is about the same as FLA in the worst case. So we would not be saving any weight, and they may be about the same size.
6. Deep discharge does not ruin them, like it does LFP.
7. They have a lot of cycles available and will last for years. More than LFP.

LTO concerns:

1. Not normally used and people are not familiar with them.
2. Support and information.
3. Getting good ones. Which brands are best?
4. Who to buy from to get good balanced ones?
5. What BMS to use?
6. Amount of space they will occupy.
7. Cost.

By my estimates LFP weight will be about 60-82% less than LTO.
Also LFP will be about 50% less volume than LTO.

LTO will be a more robust battery but it will weigh more and take up more space.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by rgleason

@Fuss Thanks. I look forward to your contributions and hope you will remain interested and involved.

Me too

Originally Posted by rgleason

LTO concerns:

1. Not normally used and people are not familiar with them.
2. Support and information.
3. Getting good ones. Which brands are best?
4. Who to buy from to get good balanced ones?
5. What BMS to use?
6. Amount of space they will occupy.
7. Cost.

By my estimates LFP weight will be about 60-82% less than LTO.
Also LFP will be about 50% less volume than LTO.

LTO will be a more robust battery but it will weigh more and take up more space.

I thought the problem with LTO is the number of cells doesn't really match 12v systems. Its much closer for 24v systems.

The 1.5v per cell cut off is also very low for a 5 or 6 cell system. Do you forgo some capacity to enable huge current draws?

Pete

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Yes rgleason you are right.


CaptainRivet , I apologise for writing that you should be banned and that the constant turning posts into LTO thread drifts is ridiculous.


I am sorry.

Apology accepted. How about we start new with a clean plate and forget the past? For me ok


rgleason: please post all that stuff regarding LTO then in the LTO thread, not fair to Jedi. Already good comparison you posted, mostly ok but will correct some things about LTO like max 800a charge on a 40AH...its 400A

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Me too



I thought the problem with LTO is the number of cells doesn't really match 12v systems. Its much closer for 24v systems.

The 1.5v per cell cut off is also very low for a 5 or 6 cell system. Do you forgo some capacity to enable huge current draws?

Pete

My input Pete7...



Exactly, this is one of the problems with them, why would you want these over Lifepo4 unless you wanted to go cold.
The summary against Lifepo4,
- expensive,
- takes much more space
- voltage when 12v
- we don't need an overpriced 20 year solution



I have 3 EVE 280ah 24v batteries
1 starts the motor and is also part of the house bank

There is only 1 type of battery onboard and that means redundancy


Its all been discussed before and its clear that they are not a good solution as Lifepo4 exists.
If lifepo4 did not exist then they would be a great solution...



Did anyone ever buy LTO on the basis of reading about them on Cruisersforum.?
I bet there is nobody.


BTW EVE 280ah cost around 110€ from NKON in Holland. 440€ for 12v without BMS

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Me too



I thought the problem with LTO is the number of cells doesn't really match 12v systems. Its much closer for 24v systems.

The 1.5v per cell cut off is also very low for a 5 or 6 cell system. Do you forgo some capacity to enable huge current draws?

Pete

Pete thats kinda correct for use as house but for starter/bowtruster/windlass its perfect.
You optimal range to operate them is between 2.0V and 2.6V in 1 or 2P6S for 12V which is 12V-15.6V means you can charge them with any lead charger and if charged with LI-profil till 14.4V thats 2,4V or about 85% SOC and you can float them there (if you want but not needed as they have no measurable self discharge) for 20years means they are always there even when your LFP house shuts off, the LTO won't.

But they can do 1.5 till 2.9V per cell and even 5V for 30min means 9V to 30V without any damage, so even a broken alternator regulator doesn't damage them and still at 9V a 40AH LTO can start a 7lV8 Z06 corvette engine, try that with a AGM...

[rgleason]

LTO Study
YINLONG LTO 2.3V 45Ah Cylindrical Lithium Titanate Oxid Battery Cell, A-Grade

YL-LTO-45-AH

2P6S=12 Cells
202mm x 420mm x 140mm or 8"w x 16.5"l x 5.5"h without case
1.5kg x 12 = 18kg or 39lb
$87 x 12 = $1044

They can be charged with the LFP profile or use an LTO profile for more power.
For 300ah that would be $3132 <-- Too much for me.
Even 180ah would be $2088
Maybe I don't need as many AH since they charge fast and have a high C rate and I am using the alternator as the prime charging source?
Certainly, the starter battery could be smaller, perhaps just 1P6S 45ah and about $520 which would be 8" x 16.5" x 2.75" and weigh about 20 lbs.
So the total cost would be about $3500 just for the batteries.
I don't know what BMS or how to package them.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Fuss

My input Pete7...
I have 3 EVE 280ah 24v batteries
1 starts the motor and is also part of the house bank

now that finally make sense:
3500W 24V starter on a 1p8S 280AH bank is 145A, so start surge is 350-400A.
EVE can do 1C constant and 2C peak, the newer series even 2C/4C.
sure that works with 1p8S starter 280AH EVE for 8x150Euro....
that on 12V no way...


you need 2AH to start, the rest 278AH are useless...
thats the perfect setup to just make one big bank housebank of 3 paralell 1P8S batteries and start from House. you have 3 batteries as redudancy and 3 BMS and load shared by 3 is nothing for a 280AH cell.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by rgleason

LTO Study
YINLONG LTO 2.3V 45Ah Cylindrical Lithium Titanate Oxid Battery Cell, A-Grade

YL-LTO-45-AH

2P6S=12 Cells
202mm x 420mm x 140mm or 8"w x 16.5"l x 5.5"h without case
1.5kg x 12 = 18kg or 39lb
$87 x 12 = $1044

They can be charged with the LFP profile or use an LTO profile for more power.
For 300ah that would be $3132 <-- Too much for me.
Even 180ah would be $2088
Maybe I don't need as many AH since they charge fast and have a high C rate and I am using the alternator as the prime charging source?
Certainly, the starter battery could be smaller, perhaps just 1P6S 45ah and about $520 which would be 8" x 16.5" x 2.75" and weigh about 20 lbs.
So the total cost would be about $3500 just for the batteries.
I don't know what BMS or how to package them.

wrong cells...the 45AH are crap and too expensive.
LTO house make only sense for a very few cases, yours definitly not.


for your boat you need 1P6S 30AH Yinglong cells and for starter even B-grade with then 6x27Ah are fully ok. no BMS, just an active Balancer eg Heltec is 20$.
you get them below 50$ so 6x50$+20$ Balancer=320$ for the starter/backup good for 20-30years, do once and forget it works
Alternative

a) the 40 or 50AH Winston 12V for 200-250Euro.
b) https://shop.gwl.eu/LTO-Single-Cells...V-30Ah-6C.html 6x30AH for 180$+20$ balancer => didn't test them but they look good from specs and cheap. the Yinglong 30AH and 40AH i use over 10 years now.

and then 4x304AH EVE with new JK BMS as house.

The cheap solution with extra starter battery for safety and backup.

well i would take 4x200 or 300AH Winston with REC BMS and start from house and forget a seperate starter in a small 32ft.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rgleason

LTO Study
YINLONG LTO 2.3V 45Ah Cylindrical Lithium Titanate Oxid Battery Cell, A-Grade

YL-LTO-45-AH

2P6S=12 Cells
202mm x 420mm x 140mm or 8"w x 16.5"l x 5.5"h without case
1.5kg x 12 = 18kg or 39lb
$87 x 12 = $1044

They can be charged with the LFP profile or use an LTO profile for more power.
For 300ah that would be $3132 <-- Too much for me.
Even 180ah would be $2088
Maybe I don't need as many AH since they charge fast and have a high C rate and I am using the alternator as the prime charging source?
Certainly, the starter battery could be smaller, perhaps just 1P6S 45ah and about $520 which would be 8" x 16.5" x 2.75" and weigh about 20 lbs.
So the total cost would be about $3500 just for the batteries.
I don't know what BMS or how to package them.

Nooooooo don’t . put . cells . in . parallel !

Get 6 of those 30Ah like Rivet says and put them in series and see where it brings you. Yes, I also use those active balancers, they are cheap and the most effective. Make sure you add the on/off switch because often they come with a drop of solder for always-on operation which is not good.