LFP+BMS+Ultracapacitors? or (2)(LFP+BMS)?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Nooooooo don’t . put . cells . in . parallel !

Get 6 of those 30Ah like Rivet says and put them in series and see where it brings you. Yes, I also use those active balancers, they are cheap and the most effective. Make sure you add the on/off switch because often they come with a drop of solder for always-on operation which is not good.

LTo is different then LFP regarding balancing, you can and should always have the balancer on with LTO as the discharge and charge curve allows the balancer to see at any SOC which cell is low and high and prevents the pack from a runner even if cells are not that even in capacity. in general with LTO the more cells in series, the more powerfull your balancer must be, thats the main tool you need to manage the LTO bank. Thats why you don't need a BMS on 6S.
That is one of the big advantages of LTO, you only charge it to 14,4V and which is SOC 85% and the balancer can perfectly balance the pack. you can keep them at any SOC at any time as long as you want to. they never have to see 100% SOC and are still perfectly balanced if you have a capable balancer. that means its LTO chemistry with its advantage but you simply treat it in your LFP system as it will be a LFP but you don't need to protect it other then a short.

You only use 85% of the LTO but for a starter, bowtruster or windlass battery that need 2-8AH max thats totally irrelevant and due to the high charge rate that max 8AH is refilled quickly

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

LTo is different then LFP regarding balancing, you can and should always have the balancer on with LTO as the discharge and charge curve allows the balancer to see at any SOC which cell is low and high and prevents the pack from a runner even if cells are not that even in capacity. Thats why you don't need a BMS on 6S. That is one of the big advantages of LTO, you only charge it to 14,4V which is SOC 85% and the balancer can perfectly balance the pack. they never have to see 100% SOC and are still perfectly balanced.

Okay that sounds logical. I would still add the switch and at least initially a cell monitor to see if this really works well. Cell monitors are so cheap, you can install them permanently anyway. Hmmm… looking at the two I have, they don’t support LTO…

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Okay that sounds logical. I would still add the switch and at least initially a cell monitor to see if this really works well. Cell monitors are so cheap, you can install them permanently anyway. Hmmm… looking at the two I have, they don’t support LTO…

well you can take a neey balancer and it will do balancer and monitor the cells. but that raises the price of a 200$ LTO to 330...enough to use a normal cheap chinese battery monitor for 30Euro on total voltage with 6S. 6S is ultrastable even with a cheap 5A heltec balancer. when they die normally the capacity go down and the whole battery voltage, so close monitoring not needed.



I agree with 11S or even more, there a Neey balancer with cell monitoring is the way to go.


https://zukunftswerkstatt-verkehr.at/titanone.html
sorry in German, thats my buddy building powerwalls with LTO since 14 years. also a good source to source the cells in Europe as he collects several order and adds to his demand to get bigger quantities and prices, all grade A+ if not stated otherwise directly from manufacturer in China. Not fast but good prices and top quality cells guranteed.

[rgleason]

LTO 2.3V 30AH Lithium Titanate Battery EVL-LTO-30AH
https://www.evlithium.com/hot-lithium-battery/870.html
Nominal Voltage(V) 2.3V
Nominal Capacity(Ah) 30Ah
Energy density(Wh/kg) 58 Dimension(mm) 66*160
Weight(kg) 1.22kg
Cycle life(100%DOD)times@25℃
≥25000
Charge limited voltage 2.8V
Discharge cut-off voltage 1.6V

faster charging： 10mins fully charged
high discharge rate: as much as 10C-15C
wide working temperature range: -50°C ~ 65°C
super long cycle life: over 30,000 times
https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...352648665.html

1P6S=6 Cells
202mm x 420mm x 140mm
8"w x 16.5"l x 2.75"h without case
1.22kg x 6 = 7.32kg or 16.1lb
$32 x 6 = $192
Is this just for the starter battery?

30a is not enough to run the boat for a decent amount of time. This is a sailboat. I need at least a 24hr day, or 150a-180a minimum house + 30a starter. I might expand the house later.

House Battery 180a/30a = (6)30a batteries = $192 x 6 = $1,152 -----8"w x 16.5"l x 16.5"h without case 16.1 x 6 = 96.6 lbs
Starter Battery 30a = (1)30a battery = $192 ---- 8"w x 16.5"l x 2.75"h without case 16lbs

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rgleason

LTO 2.3V 30AH Lithium Titanate Battery EVL-LTO-30AH
https://www.evlithium.com/hot-lithium-battery/870.html
Nominal Voltage(V) 2.3V
Nominal Capacity(Ah) 30Ah
Energy density(Wh/kg) 58 Dimension(mm) 66*160
Weight(kg) 1.22kg
Cycle life(100%DOD)times@25℃
≥25000
Charge limited voltage 2.8V
Discharge cut-off voltage 1.6V

faster charging： 10mins fully charged
high discharge rate: as much as 10C-15C
wide working temperature range: -50°C ~ 65°C
super long cycle life: over 30,000 times
https://www.alibaba.com/product-deta...352648665.html

1P6S=6 Cells
202mm x 420mm x 140mm
8"w x 16.5"l x 2.75"h without case
1.22kg x 6 = 7.32kg or 16.1lb
$32 x 6 = $192
Is this just for the starter battery?

30a is not enough to run the boat for a decent amount of time. This is a sailboat. I need at least a 24hr day, or 150a-180a minimum house + 30a starter. I might expand the house later.

House Battery 180a/30a = (6)30a batteries = $192 x 6 = $1,152 -----8"w x 16.5"l x 16.5"h without case 16.1 x 6 = 96.6 lbs
Starter Battery 30a = (1)30a battery = $192 ---- 8"w x 16.5"l x 2.75"h without case 16lbs

The idea is that you use a 30Ah LTO battery for starting the engine, instead of a LA battery, plus a LFP battery as house battery.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The idea is that you use a 30Ah LTO battery for starting the engine, instead of a LA battery, plus a LFP battery as house battery.

Exactly and the trick here is running the LTO as a LFP in your system but without the needed protection as you would run an AGM starter. Means you switch off/disconnect the LFP house and leave on starter LTO to run your bilge pumps like you would do with AGM starter but it needs no floating as no measurable self discharge. And eg if you have a leak the LTO will power the bilge pumps till its at 0V if eg no shorepower/charge like the AGM would when its on a mooring at night. The AGM would be dead or damaged, you can maybe get it back but it has 50% capacity with risk of thermal runaway while charging, latest after 3 times its totally dead. the LTO you can recharge, it just lost approx 500 cycles of its 30000cycles so you can do this 60 times till LTO is really dead and no danger of gasing or runaway.

[rgleason]

Thanks guys, this appears to be working out.

1. Starter Battery - LTO 30ah $192

LTO 2.3V 30ah Lithium Titanate Battery EVL-LTO-30AH
1P6S=6 Cells
202mm x 420mm x 140mm
8"w x 8.25"d x 5.5"h without case
1.22kg x 6 = 7.32kg or 16.1lb
$32 x 6 = $192

Also add a GWB Cell Performance Balancer $?
or Neev Balancer 1-2A-11S-bms $15 Is this the right one?

This will fit in the existing battery box next to the LFP House battery below.

2. House Battery - LiFePo4/Bms 300ah $1099

Epoch LFP 300ah $1099
Heated, Bluetooth, over charge,discharge,current and short circuit protection, High & low temperature disconnects, 4,000+ Cycles, Maintenance-free, 11 Year Warranty, IP 54 Weatherproof, Does NOT have Victron Canbus Comms
Max Charge Current Amps: 200A
58 lbs 13.6" @ Base, 15.4" @ Handles x 9.7" x 7.5"

This will fit in the existing battery box. The Epoch with the Victron Comms may not.

3. Combiner - FET $164

Victron Argofet 200-2 with alternator energizing,
(see diagram) Wire Alternator as shown to charge both LTO and LFP batteries at the same time, using an LFP charging profile.

4. External Alternator Regulator Existing

Existing Balmar ARS-5-H with Balmar APM-12 for protection.

User programmed for LFP with Alternator temperature sensing.
Eventually perhaps Balmar MC-618 which will integrate with Balmar SG2000 Battery Monitor installed a couple of years ago.

5. Alternator Existing New Delco Remy 28SI Large Frame 12v 160a $225 new

Modified for external regulation
Altmount J10 Serpentine Pulleys and belt for 3YM30 Yanmar
Specially made J10 Pulley with 2" diameter
To increase rpm and improve cooling.
Air fan added to improve ventilation
Power managed down to charge at 100a max.
See Small Boat Electrical for Sail #114 and various other posts.
See No J10 x 2" dia Alternator Sheaves?
See Converting Delco 28Si to external regulation

6. Power to Main Panel - clean power $44

Victron Energy ORI241220200 Orion-Tr 24/12-20 (240W) non-isolated DC-DC converter $44

Has 97% Efficiency! Not Smart. Single stage output
Wired from 3 way switch, wired from 3-way so load can be place on House or starter.

This has a single stage output. If you are looking for a charger with three stage output and Bluetooth please go to our Smart DC DC Charger section.

---


How does this look? Will post a diagram when I find the time.

Is there any sense in getting the Epoch LFP built-in with Victron Comms?



New thread on Zeus External Alternator Regulator but it is $800 <--- Nice but too much.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Thanks guys, this appears to be working out.

1. Starter Battery - LTO 30ah $192

LTO 2.3V 30ah Lithium Titanate Battery EVL-LTO-30AH
1P6S=6 Cells
202mm x 420mm x 140mm
8"w x 8.25"d x 5.5"h without case
1.22kg x 6 = 7.32kg or 16.1lb
$32 x 6 = $192

Also add a GWB Cell Performance Balancer $?
or Neev Balancer 1-2A-11S-bms $15 Is this the right one?

This will fit in the existing battery box next to the LFP House battery below.

2. House Battery - LiFePo4/Bms 300ah $1099

Epoch LFP 300ah $1099
Heated, Bluetooth, over charge,discharge,current and short circuit protection, High & low temperature disconnects, 4,000+ Cycles, Maintenance-free, 11 Year Warranty, IP 54 Weatherproof, Does NOT have Victron Canbus Comms
Max Charge Current Amps: 200A
58 lbs 13.6" @ Base, 15.4" @ Handles x 9.7" x 7.5"

This will fit in the existing battery box. The Epoch with the Victron Comms may not.

3. Combiner - FET $164

Victron Argofet 200-2 with alternator energizing,
(see diagram) Wire Alternator as shown to charge both LTO and LFP batteries at the same time, using an LFP charging profile.

4. External Alternator Regulator Existing

Existing Balmar ARS-5-H with Balmar APM-12 for protection.

User programmed for LFP with Alternator temperature sensing.
Eventually perhaps Balmar MC-618 which will integrate with Balmar SG2000 Battery Monitor installed a couple of years ago.

5. Alternator Existing New Delco Remy 28SI Large Frame 12v 160a $225 new

Modified for external regulation
Altmount J10 Serpentine Pulleys and belt for 3YM30 Yanmar
Specially made J10 Pulley with 2" diameter
To increase rpm and improve cooling.
Air fan added to improve ventilation
Power managed down to charge at 100a max.
See Small Boat Electrical for Sail #114 and various other posts.
See No J10 x 2" dia Alternator Sheaves?
See Converting Delco 28Si to external regulation

6. Power to Main Panel - clean power $44

Victron Energy ORI241220200 Orion-Tr 24/12-20 (240W) non-isolated DC-DC converter $44

Has 97% Efficiency! Not Smart. Single stage output
Wired from 3 way switch, wired from 3-way so load can be place on House or starter.

This has a single stage output. If you are looking for a charger with three stage output and Bluetooth please go to our Smart DC DC Charger section.

---


How does this look? Will post a diagram when I find the time.

Is there any sense in getting the Epoch LFP built-in with Victron Comms?



New thread on Zeus External Alternator Regulator but it is $800 <--- Nice but too much.

Quite good.
To 1) balancer I would recommend the 5A Heltec LTO balancer, 2A is too low because the 2 or 5A are at 500mV deviations. The 5A Heltec does around 500mA at 70mV and 1A at around 120mV and 1.3A at 200mV deviation, that’s about what a 30A LTO starter needs taken into account you can have problems starting eg diesel bug/bad glowplug… and need to crank it a lot and these will cause a bit deviations the balancer needs to handle.

House:
Suggest to build it yourself.
Cheap: use 4x280 or 304AH EVE in 1p4S with a JK active balancer BMS, that works with the Victron environment that’s around 450Euro for cells, 140Euro for BMS and let’s say 100 for case so 700Euro for a better hat then the Drop in
Rolce Royce: 4x200 or 300AH Winston in 1p4S with REC BMS, over GWL they are 200=800 for 200AH and 4x260= 1100 for 300AH and ReC is around 400Euro. REC works too with victron

My personal opinion:
The EVE new generation 280 or 304AH with this double screw terminal are now on par with former considered premium CALB or CATL, which are still more expensive then EVE, so not worth to pay the extra money.
So for me either proven EVE (and Lishen as they are basically identical) or pay the double for Winston, the undoubtedly rolce Royce for lifepo4.
And the smaller in AH bank you go the more it makes sense to get Winston as still the smallest 40AH Winston cell can run a multi 3000/12V which no other manufacturer can. And the cost difference in absolute Euro gets so small that it’s worth the additional cost, below 200AH I would always use or highly recommend Winston in a boat or RV.

On the other side the savings to go on lower spec like Hisense, geek…. are like max 80 Euro for 4 cells with same capacity and not worth the risk and lower performance.

[Dave9111]

This thread has really gone off the rails.

One of the latest suggestions has so many components, its ridiculous. All just waiting to fail.

You guys should really think about what happens when something goes wrong, like you lose a component. And you have to make due while 50 miles offshore. What is plan B?

Unless you have a seriously expensive boat, you likely have a stock engine with a stock alternator setup for FLA batteries. You can change all of that to add lithium or you can adapt your existing setup for lithium.

An isolator that costs less than $100 can adapt your existing system for LIFEPO4 batteries. A DC-DC converter can also do that.

"Making" batteries for your boat out of cells? Good luck. By the time you add the cases for protection, you haven't gained anything.

Is Alibaba a reliable supplier - no. But you want to put it on your boat?

How does your insurance company feel about ready made LIFEPO4 batteries? How does your insurance company feel about making your own batteries from parts and housing it in plywood boxes (maybe). Sure, I'm sure they are ok with that.

Drop in batteries with an isolator works well if you don't overload your alternator. (Easy to figure out) Keep your FLA starting battery, your alternator is happy and won't blow and fry everything when you make a wiring mistake. Or add a DC-DC converter if you need better charging control.

Disconnecting a running alternator from the load usually blows diodes in the alternator. The high voltage spike oftentimes takes out loads that are connected at the time. This has been the case for decades. No rocket science here. No need to retest on a bench unless you have lots of money to throw away.

Also jumping a car or boat with another battery backwards will also blow the diodes in the alternator. Learned that 40+ years ago on Chevy van.

Some of you guys are making all of this really, really hard.

[Fuss]

Hey Dave9111,
you better be careful what you’re saying… this is close to a personal attack…. you should apologize to us all.
i’ve already had to apologise in this thread and frankly I think it’s now your turn.!!
be nice.
BTW are you Dave9111 or Dave911?

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Dave9111

This thread has really gone off the rails.

One of the latest suggestions has so many components, its ridiculous. All just waiting to fail.

You guys should really think about what happens when something goes wrong, like you lose a component. And you have to make due while 50 miles offshore. What is plan B?

Unless you have a seriously expensive boat, you likely have a stock engine with a stock alternator setup for FLA batteries. You can change all of that to add lithium or you can adapt your existing setup for lithium.

An isolator that costs less than $100 can adapt your existing system for LIFEPO4 batteries. A DC-DC converter can also do that.

"Making" batteries for your boat out of cells? Good luck. By the time you add the cases for protection, you haven't gained anything.

Is Alibaba a reliable supplier - no. But you want to put it on your boat?

How does your insurance company feel about ready made LIFEPO4 batteries? How does your insurance company feel about making your own batteries from parts and housing it in plywood boxes (maybe). Sure, I'm sure they are ok with that.

Drop in batteries with an isolator works well if you don't overload your alternator. (Easy to figure out) Keep your FLA starting battery, your alternator is happy and won't blow and fry everything when you make a wiring mistake. Or add a DC-DC converter if you need better charging control.

Disconnecting a running alternator from the load usually blows diodes in the alternator. The high voltage spike oftentimes takes out loads that are connected at the time. This has been the case for decades. No rocket science here. No need to retest on a bench unless you have lots of money to throw away.

Also jumping a car or boat with another battery backwards will also blow the diodes in the alternator. Learned that 40+ years ago on Chevy van.

Some of you guys are making all of this really, really hard.

@fuss: dave‘s post is fully ok and yes if you are a cruiser with money and let other care about your vessel I fully agree with him.
But if you are skilled or wannabe skilled, be able to take care about your vessel everywhere in the world yourself and/or have tight budget things are different.

I have 5 plan Bs…
Building my own banks and battery since 20years…install and banks approved by insurance
Savings 30-50% on the battery and I know what’s inside and can externally control that…no battery cases from plywood, PP/nylon or similar boards.

Battery with a good reliable BMS in 1p4/8/16S with alibaba cells, if price fits why not. If you watch Andy and offgrid garage with the Frankenstein battery you know why…
Battery with good reliable BMS in 1p4/8/16S with quality cells from a reliable supplier I know I get what he specs=> best value for money and I knowntze system as I build myself and can troubleshoot it in the middle of the ocean.
Battery with a no name BMS and cells from alibaba => noGo
multiple parallel cell battery with alibaba cells=> noGo
Multiple parallel cell battery from a supplier I know since 14years, metricously matched=> only for myself, as I have the know how to deal with that

Chinese dropins with no external communication and no legal subsidary in Europe (or US for the ones there)=> well only in hardened install as capacity add on and only very proven companies…=> the scecurtity measures here if I would count them directly to that dropins will cut any savings to good smart dropins with external communications, but if they are already there it’s ok to uses the well known Chinese surprise boxes. but not as only battery, ok maybe on a weekend costal cruiser but never bluewater cruiser.

Top notch high quality dropins: good for noobie and noGlue/not wanna have glue and loads of money installs by contractors that need insurance as backup for their install like 30k install in a 5 Mio. boat you wanna have a Victron that takes over warranty for you if something is wrong. And you need to call anytime that installer if you wanna do something on that install incl. paying money for that…
But for me as skilled user buying the battery in Spain but have to troubleshoot it in marquesa that’s just money spend for nothing and I cannot access the cells directly for troubleshooting

[rgleason]

@Dave9111 You might as well call 911. I don't believe you've bothered to read this thread.

1. Practicality is valued and certainly insurance is a concern, however this is a discussion of ideas.
2. We are using a Victron Argofet just as had suggested.
3. As stated below, the existing alternator is a continuous duty oversized bus alternator that has been modified.
4. Whether drop-ins are used or diy fabricated are used there are still insurance questions. New flash: this is nothing new.
5. What an alarmist "...disconnecting..." we know this.
6. Blowing your alternator diodes with reverse polarity... I haven't done that yet.
7. Stuck offshore with no power, in the dark ... nor have I done that yet.
8. Some alarming situations. Thanks for your alert.

One of the things I am trying to do is come up with a simple but reliable system that has some backups, and that is not too expensive or complicated. I don't believe you understand what we are trying to do.
The last system I diagrammed with lots of help from other knowledgeable sailors and EE, was too expensive for me, would not fit in the boat, and was quite frankly, clever but not achievable.
I am hoping that this will become a better solution to my particular problem, not yours. Thanks.

LATER: And I have had a lot of good suggestions and help from everyone here, including you.

For example: You asked about battery cases, making them etc. and that was exactly one of my questions. EVE shows their testing with clamping to prevent the batteries from swelling, and I think we need to be sure to provide the right structures. Also how to make the battery waterproof, or not affected by incidental water intrusion into the port locker? One advantage of the dropin batteries is that everything is in a nice tight case and I can provide some secondary protection.

[rgleason]

Plan A's and B's
1. Alternator is protected, and LFP and LTO's are protected, Nav and Instruments are protected.
2. Failure of either battery, simply switch over the Panel to the other battery and if it is the smaller battery, run the engine more frequently.

[GrantMcP]

Good day gentlemen. Been reading what you guys are dealing with. Sounds very interesting.

I have a system which is extremely simple, very safe and totally reliable. I have had this system running for 4 years and am totally satisfied.
A brief description: I have 6x 12volt supercaps connected in parallel. They're made by Sirius Kilowatt Labs. Each stores ± 80Ahr or 1kWh, total of 480Ah. Max load 50Ah each total 300Ah.
They come with a 10 year unconditional swop out guarantee.
They are ± 99.5% efficient.
They have a 1 million cycle lifespan.
They can operate at between -30 and 80⁰C without loss of performance.
They can be safely discharged to 0v and stored under the workbench for months and recharged when needed.
They can be safely loaded onto a passenger aircraft and transported.
There are no harmful toxic chemical or gas discharges, NO ventilation required.
No risk of fire or explosion.
They weigh ± 16kg each.
I have a 45ft cruiser which I have been living on since March 2020 and they handle everything including the autopilot, pumps, nav stn, lights and windlass.
I have also fitted a 5kW 12v DC to 220v AC pure sine wave inverter. To run the microwave, kettle and to run the 0.75kW 220v AC motor on the high pressure pump for the water maker.
The only thing that I don't use them for any longer is to start up the engine although for no other reason than the 2nd alternator needs something to do so it charges the crank battery. A set of jump leads connected to the supercaps are on standby for that oh sh*t moment.
The internal components, once removed from the aluminium casing are compostable.
I charge them using 2x 330W pollychrystal solar panels controlled by a Victron100/50 MPPT Charge Controller. I also charge them using a Delco 150 A alternator via a Victron Orion TR SMART DC-DC 12-12 - 30 charger. This charges a zink battery first and when that reaches a set voltage the charge is diverted to the supercaps. The supercaps without this system would kill the alternator fast as they have no conscience, remorse or internal resistance and would take everything that the alternator can deliver until fully charged.
The alternator could handle three of these chargers connected in parallel charging at 90A continuous without overloading the alternator. That upgrade is next on my list.
If anyone wants more info feel free to ask, I'll help where I can.

I have NEVER seen them below 80% SOC

[Fuss]

Very good, supercaps, no more thread drift.
What do they cost each?
Is there some pictures and a website.
Why are they not more popular and competing against Lifepo4 boat installations.
What’s the difference between these and maxwell supercaps.