LFP+BMS+Ultracapacitors? or (2)(LFP+BMS)?

[Dave9111]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

@fuss: dave‘s post is fully ok and yes if you are a cruiser with money and let other care about your vessel I fully agree with him.
But if you are skilled or wannabe skilled, be able to take care about your vessel everywhere in the world yourself and/or have tight budget things are different.

I have 5 plan Bs…
Building my own banks and battery since 20years…install and banks approved by insurance
Savings 30-50% on the battery and I know what’s inside and can externally control that…no battery cases from plywood, PP/nylon or similar boards.

Battery with a good reliable BMS in 1p4/8/16S with alibaba cells, if price fits why not. If you watch Andy and offgrid garage with the Frankenstein battery you know why…
Battery with good reliable BMS in 1p4/8/16S with quality cells from a reliable supplier I know I get what he specs=> best value for money and I knowntze system as I build myself and can troubleshoot it in the middle of the ocean.
Battery with a no name BMS and cells from alibaba => noGo
multiple parallel cell battery with alibaba cells=> noGo
Multiple parallel cell battery from a supplier I know since 14years, metricously matched=> only for myself, as I have the know how to deal with that

Chinese dropins with no external communication and no legal subsidary in Europe (or US for the ones there)=> well only in hardened install as capacity add on and only very proven companies…=> the scecurtity measures here if I would count them directly to that dropins will cut any savings to good smart dropins with external communications, but if they are already there it’s ok to uses the well known Chinese surprise boxes. but not as only battery, ok maybe on a weekend costal cruiser but never bluewater cruiser.

Top notch high quality dropins: good for noobie and noGlue/not wanna have glue and loads of money installs by contractors that need insurance as backup for their install like 30k install in a 5 Mio. boat you wanna have a Victron that takes over warranty for you if something is wrong. And you need to call anytime that installer if you wanna do something on that install incl. paying money for that…
But for me as skilled user buying the battery in Spain but have to troubleshoot it in marquesa that’s just money spend for nothing and I cannot access the cells directly for troubleshooting

I am amazed that you have been able to assemble your own batteries and get them past the insurance company. I not doubting what you say, I have just never heard of that before.

I'm not sure it is a good idea to encourage others to do so without a lot of advice. I have seen DIY 48 volt batteries that are contained with wood 2x4's with no cover over over the terminals.

There are a lot of fakes on Alibaba as well.

I'm ok with taking "some" reasonable risk if the reward is there. The Chinese "surprise" boxes need to be tested. I've had really good luck (so far) with the 12 volt, 100ah batteries I have purchased from the Chinese packaged battery sellers.

How long they last, time will tell.

The gist of my argument is not to make your system too complex. The more complex, typically the higher the failure rate. Also, if you make it excessively complex, who will understand it but you?

Regarding Chinese suppliers, the Chinese can make very good equipment if they desire. I understand that Victron is making some of their equipment in China.

[Dave9111]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Hey Dave9111,
you better be careful what you’re saying… this is close to a personal attack…. you should apologize to us all.
i’ve already had to apologise in this thread and frankly I think it’s now your turn.!!
be nice.
BTW are you Dave9111 or Dave911?

Ha ha....
I have no idea what you said to require an apology to the entire group, but I will accept it as well. :-)

Dave9111. It was an emergency and I got carried away!

[Dave9111]

Originally Posted by GrantMcP

Good day gentlemen. Been reading what you guys are dealing with. Sounds very interesting.

I have a system which is extremely simple, very safe and totally reliable. I have had this system running for 4 years and am totally satisfied.
A brief description: I have 6x 12volt supercaps connected in parallel. They're made by Sirius Kilowatt Labs. Each stores ± 80Ahr or 1kWh, total of 480Ah. Max load 50Ah each total 300Ah.
They come with a 10 year unconditional swop out guarantee.
They are ± 99.5% efficient.

I have NEVER seen them below 80% SOC

What did you pay for your supercaps? They sound super expensive.

[Fuss]

Dave you are my hero!

[bobatkins]

You want this to protect an alternator from any sudden disconnection of the batteries.

https://www.sterling-power-usa.com/S...iondevice.aspx

[Fuss]

Perfect bobatkins, if only someone could have suggested this earlier in this thread , all would have been solved!

[Dave9111]

Originally Posted by rgleason

@Dave9111 You might as well call 911. I don't believe you've bothered to read this thread.

One of the things I am trying to do is come up with a simple but reliable system that has some backups, and that is not too expensive or complicated. I don't believe you understand what we are trying to do.

The last system I diagrammed with lots of help from other knowledgeable sailors and EE, was too expensive for me, would not fit in the boat, and was quite frankly, clever but not achievable.

I am hoping that this will become a better solution to my particular problem, not yours. Thanks.

LATER: And I have had a lot of good suggestions and help from everyone here, including you.

For example: You asked about battery cases, making them etc. and that was exactly one of my questions. EVE shows their testing with clamping to prevent the batteries from swelling, and I think we need to be sure to provide the right structures. Also how to make the battery waterproof, or not affected by incidental water intrusion into the port locker? One advantage of the dropin batteries is that everything is in a nice tight case and I can provide some secondary protection.

I actually read most of it.

>One of the things I am trying to do is come up with a simple but reliable system that has some backups, and that is not too expensive or complicated. I don't believe you understand what we are trying to do.<

That's what I thought. What you are pursuing is a very common goal.

I haven't read anything about Eve clamping their cells. Are we talking about Prismatic cells? The only cells that I understood benefit from clamping are pouch cells. Most of the better 12 volt "Mini" 100ah batteries are built with pouch cells and have clamps. Most of the larger non "Mini" 12 volt 100 ah batteries use prismatic cells and don't use clamps. Many are foaming the cells in place.

Regarding bus/truck alternators; The capacity of the bigger alternators is dependent on airflow through the alternator. They aren't that much different than car alternators, just larger.

For instance:
38SITM: Power and Efficiency You Can Count On .....

This OE approved model is rated at 215 amps and 121 amps at low engine RPM.

From this:
https://www.delcoremy.com/alternator...-highway-truck

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by GrantMcP

Good day gentlemen. Been reading what you guys are dealing with. Sounds very interesting.

I have a system which is extremely simple, very safe and totally reliable. I have had this system running for 4 years and am totally satisfied.
A brief description: I have 6x 12volt supercaps connected in parallel. They're made by Sirius Kilowatt Labs. Each stores ± 80Ahr or 1kWh, total of 480Ah. Max load 50Ah each total 300Ah.
They come with a 10 year unconditional swop out guarantee.
They are ± 99.5% efficient.
They have a 1 million cycle lifespan.
They can operate at between -30 and 80⁰C without loss of performance.
They can be safely discharged to 0v and stored under the workbench for months and recharged when needed.
They can be safely loaded onto a passenger aircraft and transported.
There are no harmful toxic chemical or gas discharges, NO ventilation required.
No risk of fire or explosion.
They weigh ± 16kg each.
I have a 45ft cruiser which I have been living on since March 2020 and they handle everything including the autopilot, pumps, nav stn, lights and windlass.
I have also fitted a 5kW 12v DC to 220v AC pure sine wave inverter. To run the microwave, kettle and to run the 0.75kW 220v AC motor on the high pressure pump for the water maker.
The only thing that I don't use them for any longer is to start up the engine although for no other reason than the 2nd alternator needs something to do so it charges the crank battery. A set of jump leads connected to the supercaps are on standby for that oh sh*t moment.
The internal components, once removed from the aluminium casing are compostable.
I charge them using 2x 330W pollychrystal solar panels controlled by a Victron100/50 MPPT Charge Controller. I also charge them using a Delco 150 A alternator via a Victron Orion TR SMART DC-DC 12-12 - 30 charger. This charges a zink battery first and when that reaches a set voltage the charge is diverted to the supercaps. The supercaps without this system would kill the alternator fast as they have no conscience, remorse or internal resistance and would take everything that the alternator can deliver until fully charged.
The alternator could handle three of these chargers connected in parallel charging at 90A continuous without overloading the alternator. That upgrade is next on my list.
If anyone wants more info feel free to ask, I'll help where I can.

I have NEVER seen them below 80% SOC

Sorry to disappoint you but due to this teardown video these are no supercapacitors, they used LTO18650 cells
https://youtu.be/JlRRBKrGsbE?si=Go68Sfj3YmNYeJIg

But maybe you got different ones. How much does one module cost? What's exactly the model?

[GrantMcP]

Hi, thanks for the question.

Just to start with, lithium is last years technology

I live in South Africa.
To answer your question, I paid ZAR16000.00 four years ago for an 80aAh unit. Which converts to ± USD800.00

That may sound expensive but compare that to a 102Ah lead acid which is called a 102Ah but can only delive say 50Ah which cost ± ZAR3000.OO(USD150.00) each which means you'd need two which will only last 2 to 3 years and cost ZAR 6000.00(USD300.00).

My supercap will still operate strong after 4 years and will still be strong 30 years from now whereas during the same 4 years I'd have replaced the lead acids twice.

There is nothing one can do to these supercaps to compromise their performance. You can't overvoltage them or undervoltage them, you can't overload them, they'll shutdown and require a quick jump-start to reset them.

They'll work anywhere on the planet where you can live. They'll work as well in Antarctica as they work in the tropics,

Both lead acid and lithium can burn and explode, ask Elon Musk. I wouldn't have either lithium or lead acid anywhere near my boat knowing what I know now.

With the benefit of hindsight 2 supercaps(160Ah) could be enough as they are very efficient and charge fast.

Four years ago, according to Kilowatt Labs, my boat was the first in the world fitted with their supercaps and I've never heard of anyone else using them. People in the business, highly qualified, university degreed people have no idea how they work and are sometimes embarrassed when a guy like me that shod horses for a living gives them a lesson in next year's technology.

[wholybee]

My understanding is that supercaps/ultracaps can deliver and except huge amounts of power (Amps) but store comparably little energy (Ah). So you can use supercaps in place of a battery, but it will be much larger and heavier. (I just watched the video Captain Rivet posted and it talks about and confirms all this)

They have also been around since the 1960's. If they really are a Lithium battery killer, why were Lithium Batteries even developed?

[CaptainRivet]

https://solarsf.co.za/index.php?rout...product_id=134

Is that the ones you have, i cannot find 80AH ones..these are 50AH 12V and weight 23kg.

I done a lot competition car audio in younger years and we also used 10 years ago up to 30farad Supercaps just to deliver that peak power that early lithium batteries couldn't deliver but class A amps at 0.5ohm needed to sound really awesome. But to make decent size batteries out of them they must be huge and heavy. With the upcoming of LTO which can deliver 20C peaks the supercaps where not needed anymore and also didn’t make sense.
Supercaps are supersenstive to over-voltage charge

[GrantMcP]

Hi.
The supercaps that I have were designed to be installed in poles. See the link below. I have six of these connected connected in parallel. They are 1kWh / ±80Ahr. Honestly, they just work so well. NOTHING comes even close. No fumes, not corrosive, non flamible, non explosive. they handle heat up to 80⁰C down to minus 30⁰C. They themselves don't emit any heat and require no ventilation. Lithium can not come anywhere close. I don't care, they're dangerous and have too many caveats attached. Never mind the environmental impact.

Part number: 1000-12-B-O.6C-A-G

https://kilowattlabs.com/products/low-voltage/

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Thanks guys, this appears to be working out.

1. Starter Battery - LTO 30ah $192

LTO 2.3V 30ah Lithium Titanate Battery EVL-LTO-30AH
1P6S=6 Cells
202mm x 420mm x 140mm
8"w x 8.25"d x 5.5"h without case
1.22kg x 6 = 7.32kg or 16.1lb
$32 x 6 = $192

Also add a GWB Cell Performance Balancer $?
or Neev Balancer 1-2A-11S-bms $15 Is this the right one?

This will fit in the existing battery box next to the LFP House battery below.

2. House Battery - LiFePo4/Bms 300ah $1099

Epoch LFP 300ah $1099
Heated, Bluetooth, over charge,discharge,current and short circuit protection, High & low temperature disconnects, 4,000+ Cycles, Maintenance-free, 11 Year Warranty, IP 54 Weatherproof, Does NOT have Victron Canbus Comms
Max Charge Current Amps: 200A
58 lbs 13.6" @ Base, 15.4" @ Handles x 9.7" x 7.5"

This will fit in the existing battery box. The Epoch with the Victron Comms may not.

3. Combiner - FET $164

Victron Argofet 200-2 with alternator energizing,
(see diagram) Wire Alternator as shown to charge both LTO and LFP batteries at the same time, using an LFP charging profile.

4. External Alternator Regulator Existing

Existing Balmar ARS-5-H with Balmar APM-12 for protection.

User programmed for LFP with Alternator temperature sensing.
Eventually perhaps Balmar MC-618 which will integrate with Balmar SG2000 Battery Monitor installed a couple of years ago.

5. Alternator Existing New Delco Remy 28SI Large Frame 12v 160a $225 new

Modified for external regulation
Altmount J10 Serpentine Pulleys and belt for 3YM30 Yanmar
Specially made J10 Pulley with 2" diameter
To increase rpm and improve cooling.
Air fan added to improve ventilation
Power managed down to charge at 100a max.
See Small Boat Electrical for Sail #114 and various other posts.
See No J10 x 2" dia Alternator Sheaves?
See Converting Delco 28Si to external regulation

6. Power to Main Panel - clean power $44

Victron Energy ORI241220200 Orion-Tr 24/12-20 (240W) non-isolated DC-DC converter $44

Has 97% Efficiency! Not Smart. Single stage output
Wired from 3 way switch, wired from 3-way so load can be place on House or starter.

This has a single stage output. If you are looking for a charger with three stage output and Bluetooth please go to our Smart DC DC Charger section.

---


How does this look? Will post a diagram when I find the time.

Is there any sense in getting the Epoch LFP built-in with Victron Comms?



New thread on Zeus External Alternator Regulator but it is $800 <--- Nice but too much.

Ok rgleason, we’ve had some fun with the massive threaddrift and posters who did not read and understand but now we want to complete your design and put the LTO subject to bed once and for all.
You have to finish your design on here and buy the LTO batteries, you’ve heard all the arguments for and against and you now can make history by being the very first example to take this step.

[rgleason]

Thanks for contributing GrantMcP


This is what I've found about Sirus Super Capacitor Specs

KiloWatt Labs Sirius Super Capacitor battery test 3.5kWh

Not 99% eff. more like 91%
465-12-B-0.9C-TM-SD-A-X-X-G 12v, 460w ,38ah, 313 × 183 × 204, 12.3x 7.2 x 8.1" Max charge rate 35a, 11kg 25.3 lbs

Cost is the second highest at 1450 AU$/kWh and they are labeled as an LTO battery.

I found Sirius Energy 3.55KWH 48V Super Capacitor for $418 (currency?) but these batteries are pretty rare. This is 74ah at 48v or if they made 12v 3.55kWh it would be 295ah, so at that price it might be worth considering. The size and weight of this is considerably more.

These do take up more space that LFP, but this could be considered similar to the LTO engine start battery, and it may very well be an LTO battery, because its charge discharge results indicate that. Unfortunately it is way too expensive.

I would be interested in more information however, if you can provide it.

Fuss, not ready. Still studying it. No diagram made yet either. How to contain the battery? Case material? WP?
As far as thread drift, I started the thread and are discussing Ultracapacitors now or LTO? I don't know yet.

[rgleason]

bobatkins Thanks for your suggestion to use a Sterling APM which has a set of contacts which can be used for a failure alarm or light. https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ml#post3853349

We are going to use the similar purposed Balmar APM which has a built in indicator failure. However if we should decide that we need a wider alert than that we will be considering the Sterling APM.

We consider these to be backup devices and not the primary protection for the alternator. Therefore they are not the only answer to the problem.