LFP+BMS+Ultracapacitors? or (2)(LFP+BMS)?

[rgleason]

In the interest of simplifying this system and having two identical chemistry batteries to provide alterenator protection through the Victron ArgoFet without having to go to the trouble of building an LTO starter battery... (Fuss)

Starter Battery:
Our 3YM30 starts easily all the time with a 16 year old West Marine GelCell 12v 72ah batter that is probably down 60%C (43ah).

MaineSail says in another forum:
"Yanmar now wants to see a min Ah rating of 64 Ah's for the 3YM30. Your starter, at "max loaded current", is only rated at 250A.
That being said you can just use the house bank to start and your new batt of at least 400CCA for reserve. Might as well go for something in the 600+CCA class as even small group 24's will do this."
Here are the starting motor specs 12.3 Starting motor on page 201 (page 186 of the manual)

What is the smallest LFP dropin that would start the 3YM30?
Would a $200 Epoch 12V 50Ah, 14.3 lbs, 7.7 x 6.9 x 6.5",

Max Continuous Discharge Amps: 50A
Max Charge Current Amps: 50A
Max Discharge Peak Current Amps: 170A (3 Seconds)

do the job? Or are the peak current amps too low?
In the worst case, if it does not work, and if the House battery is operational, the house could be used too.
Perhaps the House and Start batteries should be more the same size for that reason? It will cost more.
12V 100Ah Marine Battery - Lithium Trolling Motor Battery $599

Max Continuous Discharge Amps: 120A
Max Charge Current Amps: 150A (10 Seconds)
Max Discharge Peak Current Amps: 200A (60 Seconds)

The other simple approach is to get one of those portable battery boosters for the boat, but then I have lost protection of the alternator diodes.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rgleason

In the interest of simplifying this system and having two identical chemistry batteries to provide alterenator protection through the Victron ArgoFet without having to go to the trouble of building an LTO starter battery... (Fuss)

Starter Battery:
Our 3YM30 starts easily all the time with a 16 year old West Marine GelCell 12v 72ah batter that is probably down 60%C (43ah).

MaineSail says in another forum:
"Yanmar now wants to see a min Ah rating of 64 Ah's for the 3YM30. Your starter, at "max loaded current", is only rated at 250A.
That being said you can just use the house bank to start and your new batt of at least 400CCA for reserve. Might as well go for something in the 600+CCA class as even small group 24's will do this."

What is the smallest LFP dropin that would start the 3YM30?
Would a $200 Epoch 12V 50Ah, 14.3 lbs, 7.7 x 6.9 x 6.5",

Max Continuous Discharge Amps: 50A
Max Charge Current Amps: 50A
Max Discharge Peak Current Amps: 170A (3 Seconds)

do the job? Or are the peak current amps too low?
In the worst case, if it does not work, and if the House battery is operational, the house could be used too.
Perhaps the House and Start batteries should be more the same size for that reason? It will cost more.
12V 100Ah Marine Battery - Lithium Trolling Motor Battery $599

Max Continuous Discharge Amps: 120A
Max Charge Current Amps: 150A (10 Seconds)
Max Discharge Peak Current Amps: 200A (60 Seconds)

The other simple approach is to get one of those portable battery boosters for the boat, but then I have lost protection of the alternator diodes.

I find it amazing how you keep going in circles without ever finding the path to a solid system. You get distracted by every little comment and come up with systems not even the starship Enterprise has.

So you want the alternator to directly charge the LFP house bank.

1. External regulator with programmable settings for lithium and temperature sensor on the alternator (not temperature compensation for the battery!!!).

2. Victron Argofet with two ports

3. LiTime or other LFP drop in batteries with wide community approval like LiTime for the house bank.

4. Odyssey AGM start battery.

5. Victron 12-12/18 or 12/12-30 Smart Orion DC-DC charger to charge from house to start battery.

Now you only need to figure out how/when to enable the Orion. I propose the most expensive option, which I think is the best, but you can go as low cost as manually doing it.
For my solution, install a separate Smart BMV for the start battery so you always know the state of it. Connect it’s programmable relay to the remote on/off of the Orion. Now play with it’s programming.

You know it gets most of it’s charge through the Argo so you only need to finish charge it. I would find a way to start the Orion when the engine is off and when the start battery is below 90% charged, then turn off when either the engine is started or charger goes to float.
Thinking about this, I may prefer to use an Arduino to send the on/off signal.

[rgleason]

To heck with the LFP starter battery. That is not the simplest, cheapest and easiest battery to use!

Just use a good motorcycle FLA battery! The Victron Argofet isolates the two different chemistries and the FLA will be charged at LFP rates and fail sooner than normal. So be it.

This one happens to be an AGM 12v 30a CCA 385 6.54x4.96x6.89 18.83lb Sealed Lead Acid (AGM) which some people do not like.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rgleason

To heck with the LFP starter battery. That is not the simplest, cheapest and easiest battery to use!

Just use a good motorcycle FLA battery! The Victron Argofet isolates the two different chemistries and the FLA will be charged at LFP rates and fail sooner than normal. So be it.

This one happens to be an AGM 12v 30a CCA 385 6.54x4.96x6.89 18.83lb Sealed Lead Acid (AGM) which some people do not like.

You must be able to reliably start the engine with it. Use the engine manufacturer recommendation for start battery, but I agree on AGM. If you don’t care about lifespan of it then you can leave out the Orion.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dave9111

This thread has really gone off the rails.

One of the latest suggestions has so many components, its ridiculous. All just waiting to fail.

I agree with you. If all that is needed is an engine start battery, there is something delightfully simple with an AGM or SLA 12v battery. More to the point available the world over on a Sunday morning if caught out. If not, then its a service item with a 6 or 7 year life.

I am not against new tech, but at this current point a nice big AGM will do us nicely.

However, the bow thruster is an interesting, except we don't have one. Doing away with long heavy cable runs and a lead acid battery in the bow instead running it off 6 LTOs would be interesting.

[rgleason]

s/vJedi Just saw your post. That's right you had mentioned using an Odyssey AGM start battery (was it in another thread?) I suppose a small solar panel and controller could also be used. Would this one be ok

HEPPC625 Odyssey 16CL-B 12V 220CCA AGM Powersport Battery $206 14.7 lbs 6.7 x 3.9 x 6.89 height Its only 18ah, so to use it for an emergency battery would be interesting, but it would probably work with frequent engine charges.

I believe the House Battery Epoch LFP 12v 300a could also be used to start the engine with Max Discharge Peak Current Amps: 400A (3 Seconds).

I guess you don't think this is a worthwhile thing to do

6. Power to Main Panel - clean power $44

Victron Energy ORI241220200 Orion-Tr 24/12-20 (240W) non-isolated DC-DC converter $44

Has 97% Efficiency! Not Smart. Single stage output
Wired from 3 way switch, wired from 3-way so load can be place on House or starter.

[Pete7]

That battery is bit small unless your are confident the engine will start quickly each time. We used a Redflash 1100 which is similar to Odyssey just another make, for a decade. Worked really well and gave a huge thump for the first 5 seconds to get a cold engine turning over. However, the price for either make as become ridiculous in the UK, so we have gone back to a large Bosch AGM instead at half the price.

https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/red-flash/1000/

Pete

[s/v Jedi]

Again, follow engine manufacturer recommendations for start battery. They will list CCA etc.

[rgleason]

Pete, I agree. I think 400cca would be better, and perhaps get more amps than 16ah, to provide marginal reserve for use as a backup battery.
FLA 65ah, 800cca $150
Duracell AGM 30ah, 400cca $200
Duracell AGM 70ah, 760cca $260
Optima Yellowtop DS46b24r 38ah, 450cca, 26lbs 5.06"x9.31"x 8.88" $289.99
This can be decided later I think.

Originally Posted by Pete7

That battery is bit small unless your are confident the engine will start quickly each time. We used a Redflash 1100 which is similar to Odyssey just another make, for a decade. Worked really well and gave a huge thump for the first 5 seconds to get a cold engine turning over. However, the price for either make as become ridiculous in the UK, so we have gone back to a large Bosch AGM instead at half the price.

https://www.tayna.co.uk/car-batteries/red-flash/1000/

Pete

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Starter Battery:
Our 3YM30 starts easily all the time with a 16 year old West Marine GelCell 12v 72ah batter that is probably down 60%C (43ah).

MaineSail says in another forum:
"Yanmar now wants to see a min Ah rating of 64 Ah's for the 3YM30. Your starter, at "max loaded current", is only rated at 250A.
That being said you can just use the house bank to start and your new batt of at least 400CCA for reserve. Might as well go for something in the 600+CCA class as even small group 24's will do this."
Here are the starting motor specs 12.3 Starting motor on page 201 (page 186 of the manual)

Posted earlier. There is a chart too.
12.3.2 Characteristics
Load
Terminal voltage (V) 8.4
Electric current (A) 250
Torque (N•m) 8.3 (MIN)
Revolutions (min) 1,000


So it requires 250a

[GrantMcP]

Yes, I've seen that video a while back. I think that the outcome of tests like this are reliant on things like who's doing the tests.

I am aware of the 12v 0.465kWh block. Been found to be not as reliable as the 1kWh like the ones that I have. Once again, who, how and why?

Subsequent to the 48v 3.5kWh they have introduced I think a 7.2kWh and a 48v 10kWh unit.

The 1kWh, 80Ahr units that I have were designed to be installed in poles but they have worked incredibly well in my boat. Charging is fast, no chemicals, no gas, reliable and safe to use.

The 1kW units do have a max charge/discharge current limited by a cutout circuit to 50A to reduce the risk of accidentally turning wiring into light bulbs with 1kW of power discharging in seconds.

The only negative characteristic is a max input voltage of 13.5 volts which initially troubled me and made Charging with an alternator a problem until I was introduced to the Victron 12volt 30amp DC to DC Charger where one can set the parameters. I was told not to charge at more than 13.5 for more than a few seconds and to set this at 13.4V but I set mine at 13.45V

The newer version of the ones that I have now have an on/off switch which would make working with them easier and safer.

We all know that lead acid can be very hazardous and that lithium well there's no extinguishing then, even Elon knows that.

For me the safety aspect is important and the fact that it's the only battery that's been internationally approved to be transported by air is good enough for me.

That's about all that I can tell you right now.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by GrantMcP

Yes, I've seen that video a while back. I think that the outcome of tests like this are reliant on things like who's doing the tests.

I am aware of the 12v 0.465kWh block. Been found to be not as reliable as the 1kWh like the ones that I have. Once again, who, how and why?

Subsequent to the 48v 3.5kWh they have introduced I think a 7.2kWh and a 48v 10kWh unit.

The 1kWh, 80Ahr units that I have were designed to be installed in poles but they have worked incredibly well in my boat. Charging is fast, no chemicals, no gas, reliable and safe to use.

The 1kW units do have a max charge/discharge current limited by a cutout circuit to 50A to reduce the risk of accidentally turning wiring into light bulbs with 1kW of power discharging in seconds.

The only negative characteristic is a max input voltage of 13.5 volts which initially troubled me and made Charging with an alternator a problem until I was introduced to the Victron 12volt 30amp DC to DC Charger where one can set the parameters. I was told not to charge at more than 13.5 for more than a few seconds and to set this at 13.4V but I set mine at 13.45V

The newer version of the ones that I have now have an on/off switch which would make working with them easier and safer.

We all know that lead acid can be very hazardous and that lithium well there's no extinguishing then, even Elon knows that.

For me the safety aspect is important and the fact that it's the only battery that's been internationally approved to be transported by air is good enough for me.

That's about all that I can tell you right now.

So are you sure they are capacitors because the video shows and questions if they are LTO because the discharge and charge charts follow LTO.
Also, your boat is much bigger. Do you know if they make a 12v 3600w units? I could not find one close to that.
Thanks for posting.

[GrantMcP]

I am by no means an electronics expert but I did watch a friend of mine working on a 3.5 kW unit and I saw hundreds of capacitors. Also they would not be able to be transported on an aircraft.

I purchased two cell phones in Stutgart, they lay there for two whole years, no courier would ship them because they contained Lithium. I got someone to bring them in as hand luggage by which time the batteries were toast.

I will attach a file here and you can decide if this unit contains Lithium, acid or any substances that would contradict what I said about them being supercaps.

[GrantMcP]

As far as I am aware, the largest 12 volt unit is 1 kWh. I have installed six parallel.

[rgleason]

Well it appears they almost mimic LTO battery performance without the lithium.
Regarding the 1000-12-B-0.6C-A-G 1000watt which is 1000/12=83 amps.

80 wide x 1484 long x 117 high = 3.15"w x 58.42 long x 4.6" high
I would need at least 2 or 3 of them. 6.30w or 9.45"w x 58.42 long x 4.6" high
I don't know where those would fit in my small boat. Perhaps under the floor boards if I am lucky.