LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

[OTTCT]

here is a really stupid question for all here.

Why spend the next ten years debating this back and forth ? Why don't we get together and order 4-5 sets of batteries, 40,50 or 100 ah lifep04 - using brand A B C & D Battery. Then we build 4 batteries using one of each co cell & maybe 4 differance people can beat the hell out of the batteries - maybe even without BMS to get a quick 1,000 cycles and then do some testing to determine the results ? I would be willing to go in on one set of 4 new cells if some others wanna go for it also, I bet in 6-12 months we could put together some really good test data. The battery guys might wanna kill us, but what the hell

Cheers OTTCT

[offpist]

In order to do a test comparing different battery brands, the test environment have to be the same.

If 4 different boats use 4 different battery brands. All with different charging and load setup there will not be anything to conclude on.

[jason902]

Originally Posted by offpist

In order to do a test comparing different battery brands, the test environment have to be the same.

If 4 different boats use 4 different battery brands. All with different charging and load setup there will not be anything to conclude on.

If the test was setup as each boat used one cell from each manufacturer, then you could test four different cells in the same environment.

[hellosailor]

Not so easy I think, ott.


First off, if you mix 'n match four different brand cells, but charge them together as a battery, you're still only applying one charging algorithm to all four. Do all four makers suggest the same algorithm? At the same voltages? Possibly not.


Then you've got a major unknown, even if you get past that problem. In order to test "optimal" charging, do you charge from 40%-90% discharge state? Or 30-85%? Maybe the magic numbers are 50-90%?


So you might need to plan on six or ten discharge plans, and then, how long will it take to recharge at the recommended charge rate, or the typical marine charge rate, instead of quick charging them?


I suspect you'd need six months to a year to perform each test on each brand in the long run, which could make it a three to five year project. All for information that any reputable manufacturer already HAS, even if they won't release it.


And of course, every couple of years they may revise the chemistry, which means "Throw out your data and start over again" for the testing.


Good mass marketing sometimes means "obfusticate the facts and sell the sizzle, not the steak" and I'm afraid that's what Chinese battery companies believe. Facts are not your friend--unless you are the #1 vendor and can dare to prove it.

[offpist]

My installation has begun. (Winston 1000AH)

[mcarling]

Does anyone have experience with the newer CALB CAM72 cells?

[OTTCT]

Originally Posted by mcarling

Does anyone have experience with the newer CALB CAM72 cells?

If you go to YouTube and enter EVTV, the guy jack has a show where he talks about the new 72 ah cells he is using in a electric vw.

[OTTCT]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Not so easy I think, ott.


First off, if you mix 'n match four different brand cells, but charge them together as a battery, you're still only applying one charging algorithm to all four. Do all four makers suggest the same algorithm? At the same voltages? Possibly not.


Then you've got a major unknown, even if you get past that problem. In order to test "optimal" charging, do you charge from 40%-90% discharge state? Or 30-85%? Maybe the magic numbers are 50-90%?


So you might need to plan on six or ten discharge plans, and then, how long will it take to recharge at the recommended charge rate, or the typical marine charge rate, instead of quick charging them?


I suspect you'd need six months to a year to perform each test on each brand in the long run, which could make it a three to five year project. All for information that any reputable manufacturer already HAS, even if they won't release it.


And of course, every couple of years they may revise the chemistry, which means "Throw out your data and start over again" for the testing.


Good mass marketing sometimes means "obfusticate the facts and sell the sizzle, not the steak" and I'm afraid that's what Chinese battery companies believe. Facts are not your friend--unless you are the #1 vendor and can dare to prove it.

Thanks Hellosailor

That's why I started with it might be a stupid question, in the end your 100% right what does matter if they change the chemistry every 18 months that info is worthless. From all my reading it appears the batteries have a life 7-10+ if they get used or just sit around. I'm however still a great fan of LifeP04 cells and would not trade back to Flooded or AGM at any price.

[alctel]

I am going to move to a Lithium bank, of probably around 1000AH. However, I am wondering if with the move to EV by most of the major car manufacturers if the price of lithium batteries will fall in the next year or so. Worth waiting do you think?

[OTTCT]

Jack from his show on EVTV just said the price of batteries will come down, but the cost per AH will not come down.

Since oil is down by 50% the price of lithium batteries has shot up 10-15% ,
The cost of a CALB 100 AH was $126 two weeks ago , now $134 .

The Winston 1000 AH is now $1200 , 6 months ago they were $1000 ,
in the last 6 months I have seen them go up up and away.

The GBS 100AH - 4 cell Batterie has stayed at $620 for the last 4 years.

So you take your chances.

Cheers OTTCT

[hellosailor]

"Worth waiting do you think? "
If you want to play the futures game, why not wait two years for Tesla's new megaplant to come online? Could be two years, could stretch into three, or it might not happen at all, but supposedly it will produce an incredible amount of batteries, for which there may or may not be any buyers, depending on how EVs grow.


Of course with no way for many prime urban customers (short range trips) to recharge EVs, that market may just never materialize. (You know, just try to get condo boards to install "personal" charging stations, or get any type of landlord to allow "tenants" to install charging stations. Ain't gonna happen.)

[alctel]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"Worth waiting do you think? "
If you want to play the futures game, why not wait two years for Tesla's new megaplant to come online? Could be two years, could stretch into three, or it might not happen at all, but supposedly it will produce an incredible amount of batteries, for which there may or may not be any buyers, depending on how EVs grow.


Of course with no way for many prime urban customers (short range trips) to recharge EVs, that market may just never materialize. (You know, just try to get condo boards to install "personal" charging stations, or get any type of landlord to allow "tenants" to install charging stations. Ain't gonna happen.)

True, I guess they won't move in price in the foreseeable future.

As for the EV chargers though, they are springing up everywhere near me, both on Vancouver Island and the lower mainland. That's just the PNW though, no idea what it's like in the rest of the country - but the drive to put infrastructure in place is definitely there.

[hellosailor]

alctel-
You talk of chargers springing up, but I think you're mistaking visibility with penetration.


Consider, in the outer boroughs of NYC there can be 2000-5000 residents on each block. Approximately 200 (20 x 10) blocks to the square mile. Now, most rely on mass transit but many have cars. In fact, the streets are lined with parked cars--and none of those will be served by charging stations, because parking spots are hard to find, and unless there's a charging post AT every sport, every 20' down the street, they effectively won't exist for the car owners. Same thing for off-street garaged cars, the garages are owned by landlords or condos, etc. and if there are 50-100 cars in a garage? Again, EVERY spot must have a charger installed because the spots are not rotated, and on one will give up the income by creating a "charging spot" for rotating use. The cars "live" in one spot.


Same thing in DC, Boston...the highly visible chargers you see may make it more rational for EV owners to "come downtown and recharge while you're here" but they are still serving the suburban customers, not the urban residents who need one charger installed at every "permanent" parking spot before they become of any use.

[OTTCT]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

"Worth waiting do you think? "
If you want to play the futures game, why not wait two years for Tesla's new megaplant to come online? Could be two years, could stretch into three, or it might not happen at all, but supposedly it will produce an incredible amount of batteries, for which there may or may not be any buyers, depending on how EVs grow.


Of course with no way for many prime urban customers (short range trips) to recharge EVs, that market may just never materialize. (You know, just try to get condo boards to install "personal" charging stations, or get any type of landlord to allow "tenants" to install charging stations. Ain't gonna happen.)

Hellosailor

LOLROTF, you got me rolling in stitches now. You forget that here in CA by law we need to give 100 Sieg Heil's and God Bless before we go to bed & again before we get up to the Great 4 term Solar Früher Governor Moonbeam. He has already mandated that we need 25% Solar utilities in a few years, even if we gotta pay $6 per KW. The PUC & PG&E are already getting warm under the bkanket.

Next we are building a bullet train so that workers from south of the border can get to the grapes in N. Ca in under 90 minutes, I'll bet they even have a special pass for $99 per month unlimited rides At a cost of $200 billion to the tax payers. You and I will pay $199 each way.

As soon as the first guy sues his condo board, they will pass a law making 10% of all spots electric charging , folks buying those spots will get a $100k tax credit for each. They will be traded like a seat license on the NY stock exchange.

Every time we have $3 billion in new taxes on the ballot it passes by 60% .......but I have never meet a single guy who voted for higher taxes In my life time & of 40 of them in CA.

I would bet my shirt on higher lithium prices before I would bet on tesla however.

[hellosailor]

"As soon as the first guy sues his condo board,"
The lawyers will go dine on the town and the condo boards will ROFL. There's no legal basis for a lawsuit, since condo (co-op, etc) parking spots are usually in lots or garages, which are governed by bylaws and leases and contracts, none of which require the boards to spend tens of thousands of dollars installing new utility fixtures and repaving the lot to get the cables installed. Sure, the unit owners might be able to sue for right to install their own power lines. Might. That's a long shot and it would require the owners to spend lots of money, because those are "commercial" installations not simply dropping a line in your home garage.


Any honest lawyer would charge you for two or ten hours, the time it can take to read a full set of condo governing contracts and bylaws, modified over the years, and then roll the dice as to whether there was a chance in hell. And then he'd probably tell you it would be cheaper, simpler and about five years faster to just MOVE. It would take three to five years just to have that get to court in many cities.


Contract doesn't place any obligation on the owner to "electrify" spots, pay added insurance, and all those other good things? Nope. Can't force them to do it, unless it goes all the way up to the US Supreme Court as a public policy matter first. Ten years?


Yeah, sure there's a snowball's chance in hell. I'd play the lottery first, if I was in the mood to gamble. Better payback too.