LiFePO4 Batteries: Discussion Thread for Those Using Them as House Banks

[nebster]

Originally Posted by Hoopla

Hoping someone here may know of an existing or pending US supplier interested in our market as reliance on Chinese is becoming tiresome, particularly in countries where they have no distributers or if they do they either don't carry sufficient stock and or mark the price up by a unsatisfactory margin.

That would be great, but the approximate current retail-ish walk-up price is $0.25/kWh FOB Shenzhen, and somehow I am skeptical that someone will be able to make these things for less in the USA. It would be cool, though.

Btw, my impression is that the Chinese LFP industry is in a bind right now. My vague, outsider understanding is that a lot of the demand was military (mostly submarine?) and city bus, and now the latter is falling over. I suspect the relentless improvements in other more efficient chemistries are undermining the bus part of the market.

I believe new shipping restrictions and tariffs may also be slicing away at the market.

By leveraging over 30 years of factory automation and custom fabrication experience, our company produces batteries that deliver a longer life, a faster recharge, are safer and environmental friendly. Best of all, these batteries are designed and built inside the same country – the United States of America!

Well, that's accurate and sufficiently worked over by the marketing department. The term "battery" does, after all, literally mean "a container of cells."

[Hoopla]

Originally Posted by nebster

That would be great, but the approximate current retail-ish walk-up price is $0.25/kWh FOB Shenzhen, and somehow I am skeptical that someone will be able to make these things for less in the USA. It would be cool, though.

Btw, my impression is that the Chinese LFP industry is in a bind right now. My vague, outsider understanding is that a lot of the demand was military (mostly submarine?) and city bus, and now the latter is falling over. I suspect the relentless improvements in other more efficient chemistries are undermining the bus part of the market.

I believe new shipping restrictions and tariffs may also be slicing away at the market.

Well, that's accurate and sufficiently worked over by the marketing department. The term "battery" does, after all, literally mean "a container of cells."

Nebster you are on the money on all counts IMHO. And yes the Chinese just launched their first Aircraft Carrier so military spend is on the up.

Firstly why are cheap $ FOB ex China LFP cells geting easier to question? Reason ex China cells is now a real QA issue, hence my US manufacturer aspiration, even if it comes with a cost impost.

Unfortunately the western world is now getting LFP leftovers out of China for exactly the reasons you articulate.

By way of explanation and I'm positive you know this but maybe not others. You used to be able to insist on and recieve a reasonable narrow spread of sequential cell build numbers to build battery packs with cell uniformity , however that has now got harder. When you do recieve a batch of cells that comply the concern is they have simply being doctored by someone in the supply chain. What that translates to is it drives cost up whether it be a one-off LFP pack(s) builder, a small scale LFP commercial provider and then larger scale LFP providers. They all have one thing in common being they have to factor in some cell discards.

By way of example. Genasun who incorporated CALB cells, arguably the premier Chinese supplier (and Chinese Govt owned and largest Chinese military supplier ie read above) had a very sophisticated set up to both assemble cell packs having uniformity and balancing them before going in the box to the consumer/supply installer. They had far ahead of everyone that need and the premier BMS for dealing with fractional and including sailboat use accommodating 3rd party peripherals.

So what happened? My guess Genasun's cost of supply ecalated due to crap cells that both pushed their cost of a guaranteed product and being a "Integrated 3rd party periphal friendly product" to being in the same dollar space as the larger volume "proprietary integrated" space owned by Victron and Mastervolt, ironically both Dutch and leaders in things electric on boats for decades and with world wide distribution and support.

Everyone complains about the difference in cost of top tier integrated systems and that of DIY or local/small scale integrated systems however all the market leaders like say Masterbolt who utilise Chinese Winston cells are doing is incorporating supply deficiencies into cost of sale with an appropriate mark up to reflect their world wide support platform.

So Genasun's response to their Chinese supply cell vagaries and having to price accordingly in the marketplace despite their superior BMS offering was understandable,. They simply bailed out of the LFP market to concentrate on being a voltage regulator supplier

With that vacuum now the really interesting bit and a superb business case example. Lithionics stepped up by first taking out the darling LFP BMS supplier "House Power" to the DIY/small commercial types 'by buying their interlectual property and closing them down. They then set about replicating the Genasun top end BMS and 3rd party friendly periphal model but comfortable in the $ space to the proprietory offerings like Mastervolt and Victron selling the whole LFP energy integrsted package that costs a bomb.

So to conclude about Lithionics possibly guildng the lilly about cell country of origin I agree with you, I doubt ex Trumpy's USA and more probably ex China wrapped up in a USA envelope as per pic in post up thread. That said it probably means nothing quality wise as that is cured by good QA and simply passing that good QA cost into a cost of sale and onto the consumer as outlined above.

BTW my guess nebster you know all this so this not a direct reply, but simply a rant to inform the masses..

[Pelagic]

Most informative Hoopla

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by nebster

I know you probably just want to have a fun conversation and stir up debate on this web forum, but after beating me up on your last post, now you post this?

I mean, the title of this ginormous thread has the chemical formula "LiFePO4" in it, my own post you quoted specifically says "LFP" and is in reference to discussion about procuring LFP cells, and now you start your sentence with the corrective "actualy" (sic) and then proceed to explain that you're maybe talking about other chemistries that are totally irrelevant?



Where do they say that? It would be unlike them to misrepresent something like that, and dollars to donuts they are not sourcing LFP prismatics from a secret USA factory.

When I asked them the source of cells, they told me Taiwan as far as I recall. But they certainly didn't represent to me that they were U.S. made. Assembled in the U.S., yes.

Their role is to match the cells, balance the pack, enclose the pack and provide the BMS. They are expensive, but provide a technical role worth paying for from some. Add someone like Mr. Schwab to consult on the installation and you likely have a safe path for adoption of this technology.

[rgleason]

Interested in LiFePO after seeing Peter Kennedy's simple demo system and realizing that the special control components are not that complex or costly:

• Victron V.E Bus BMS Battery Management System $118
• Cyrix-Li-12/24V-120A charge relay $75 to prevent overcharging.
• BP200I Battery Connect Load disconnect to prevent drawdown. $58

And I think I understand the control wiring. Due to the apparent advantages of these batteries, I looked at the size and weight advantages, plus the fact that the required ah are approximately 1/2 what would have for FloodedLDC ,it all looks pretty appealing, despite the batteries being so expensive. Two 100ah Victron LifePO would fit in the batt case I will need. With these batteries it is the equivalent of 300ah FLDC probably.

In my next battery replacement (3-4 years) will technology have matured enough so I will not be considering FireflyOasis, but LifePO? If so, I will plan equipment towards that?

With BMS so reasonable and the expense of the system, why not have a BMS? It seems like a risk.

[Hoopla]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Interested in LiFePO after seeing Peter Kennedy's simple demo system and realizing that the special control components are not that complex or costly:

• Victron V.E Bus BMS Battery Management System $118
• Cyrix-Li-12/24V-120A charge relay $75 to prevent overcharging.
• BP200I Battery Connect Load disconnect to prevent drawdown. $58

......With BMS so reasonable and the expense of the system, why not have a BMS? It seems like a risk.

Victron pretty smart with attractive pricing of ancillaries and get their real return from battery pricing. Don't forget their BMS while it can control 3rd party devices it is only via potential free contacts. It is not a onboard relay so no alternator control forcing you into retaining a LA start battery as as charge dump and pushing you towards their devices such as charger/inverters etc utilising their proprietary communication system on that BMS.

[john61ct]

Actually Victron is IMO the leading vendor in publishing the specs on their comms,

Not just allowing for but actively supporting relatively easy integration via NMEA 2000, signalK to FOSS Arduino and RaspberryPi projects.

[Hoopla]

John the comparison between the two large proprietary integrated vendors is an interesting one in terms how they address that space and have positioned themselves accordingly from day one.

While both incorporate their own hardware communication bus the similarity then slips away. Mastervolt don't encourage any 3rd products by producing all of them including alternator regulators and so produce a true plug and play approach, albeit at a price.

Victron on the other hand makes allowance for their customers to have legacy 3rd party gear thus lowering their total spend, albeit it may not be as fully featured if they had 100% Victron acilliarys.

The net outcome is not just dollars as troubleshooting a totally integrated digital arrangement like Mastervolt can be difficult at sea whereas the Victron arrangement incorporating a few old fashioned analogue connections can tend to be a lot easier for the DIY to get it up and running.

Their open source approach you indicate also includes firmware with their ColourControl monitor.

[Pelagic]

While I can't contribute on the technical comparison of Victron & Mastervolt, I can add some historical background.
Back in the late 80's I was intervieing both companies for some Superyacht projects.
Turns out the founders of Mastervolt were engineers previously working for Victron.

At our meeting they explained thier frustration at Victron's slow pace into newer proprietry technology and felt they could do better in their own.

I ended up specifying Victron because of their conservative approach and it seems to be still the case.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

. . . I ended up specifying Victron because of their conservative approach and it seems to be still the case.

My boat, with a complex electrical system, is almost 100% Victron, and I had a rash of failures of Victron gear in the first years. But now I've had a number of trouble free years, and I continue to love the extremely well thought-out functionality of this gear. What was your experience with reliability?

[Pelagic]

Never heard of any problems from the engineers and on my own boat with Victron Isolation Transformer, Skyla Charger and Multiplus , never a problem

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by Hoopla

Hoping someone here may know of an existing or pending US supplier interested in our market as reliance on Chinese is becoming tiresome, particularly in countries where they have no distributers or if they do they either don't carry sufficient stock and or mark the price up by a unsatisfactory margin.



They say,;



By leveraging over 30 years of factory automation and custom fabrication experience, our company produces batteries that deliver a longer life, a faster recharge, are safer and environmental friendly. Best of all, these batteries are designed and built inside the same country – the United States of America!





http://lithionicsbattery.com/about-us/

The word “built” is pretty meaningless. The real question should be where do most of the components originate?

[john61ct]

Why should anyone care about country of origin?

Quality control can svck anywhere.

AFAIK the top makers of LFP prismatics are all mainland Chinese anyway?

Would certainly trust them more than ones from Russia.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Why should anyone care about country of origin?

Quality control can svck anywhere.

AFAIK the top makers of LFP prismatics are all mainland Chinese anyway?

Would certainly trust them more than ones from Russia.

country of origin can mean better enforceable warranty.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Never heard of any problems from the engineers and on my own boat with Victron Isolation Transformer, Skyla Charger and Multiplus , never a problem

Wow, you're lucky. I had a lot of problems and failures, and I don't think they were isolated cases. My Isolation Transformer constantly blew the breakers. Then there was a service bulletin to just get rid of them (!) which solved the problem, finally. My Multiplus did a dead fail on me which was a huge PITA because of the awkward location where mine is installed. Battery monitors have failed. All repaired or replaced by the Victron distributor with no question even about the warranty -- no complaints there -- but it was really alarming. I know others with similar experiences. There has been discussion about the warning signs of imminent Multiplus death (false "temp" and "overload" warnings) -- something common enough to have started conversations.



Maybe it was a bad year or two at the factory -- I don't know. At any rate, it's all been running fine now for some years, and I love the functionality of the Multiplus and in general Victron is obviously a highly competent company.