LiFePO4 reference diagram, Alternator version

[torrmundi]

Thank you s/v Jedi, for an excellent thread and content.
I have a few things to ask - I hope they're not too nitpicky

I do not find any Odyssey PC2100 battery; do you mean the Odyssey 31-PC2150S or 31M-PC2150ST?
These models are 2150A for 5s, 1150 CCA and is the highest capacity group 31 models offered.

The "black blob" connected to the BMS and the alternator field disconnect relays - what are these for?

The "black&white blob" connected between the manual bilge pump switch and the LA bus bar - what is that?

I am looking at LucidChart; in the past I've done similar diagrams with Digikey's Scheme-It, also free, and with the ability to create custom symbols with captured images. It has no limitation on number of symbols or projects.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by torrmundi

Thank you s/v Jedi, for an excellent thread and content.
I have a few things to ask - I hope they're not too nitpicky

I do not find any Odyssey PC2100 battery; do you mean the Odyssey 31-PC2150S or 31M-PC2150ST?
These models are 2150A for 5s, 1150 CCA and is the highest capacity group 31 models offered.

The "black blob" connected to the BMS and the alternator field disconnect relays - what are these for?

The "black&white blob" connected between the manual bilge pump switch and the LA bus bar - what is that?

I am looking at LucidChart; in the past I've done similar diagrams with Digikey's Scheme-It, also free, and with the ability to create custom symbols with captured images. It has no limitation on number of symbols or projects.

You are correct, I work from memory too much, trying to save time. This is the one: https://www.amazon.com/Odyssey-31-PC...dp/B002498NR2/

Those black blobs are audible alarms.

Those black and white blobs are thermal, resettable fuses.

I simply pay for LucidCharts, which unlocks unlimited everything

[krid2000]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

The regulator B+ wire starts with a fuse at the busbar and from there has to go through the BMS controlled relays.

What relays do you use/recommend?

They look like "normally closed" relays, opening when the BMS sets its pin to high. Also, is that a small piezo buzzer next to it?

Thanks!
Dirk

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by krid2000

What relays do you use/recommend?

They look like "normally closed" relays, opening when the BMS sets its pin to high. Also, is that a small piezo buzzer next to it?

Thanks!
Dirk

Yes, NC contacts. The relay coil voltage depends on what the BMS is sending out. Besides that, there’s a ton of choices for relays, starting at under a dollar and up to very high cost. You need to find a level where you think quality is good enough to trust it to work when needed.

If it is 12V, stand-alone application, I like these from Hella:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000VU9D0C

With

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004KEKYWQ

I have one of these in use since 2014 and still works perfectly. Waterproof.

And yes, audible alarm… to make ABYC happy.

[krid2000]

Thank you!
Dirk

[PUDDLE JUMPER II]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Let me start with the negatives:

1. It costs more.

Now the positives:

1. The setup is meant so that you can just get by with just one battery. I have 10kWh batteries and with one it’s still luxurious so for 12V I recommend 9kWh because that fits four 700Ah Winston cells. A friend just asked if he gets away with 8kWh and knowing he served in uniform as well, I said sure, you’ll get by with just one battery if the other fails.
So this point is about redundancy, if you loose a cell, you can continue without blinking an eye.

2. I also recommend to start with just one battery, get the experience, see if you can live with that, enjoy a couple years, using some old batteries as the second/backup battery. Then buy/build the second one to replace all the leftover old batteries. Now you have true double capacity plus you have a couple of years difference for lifespan. You can keep using the oldest battery for as long as it lasts, then when it fails you run on the newer second battery, giving you all the time in the world to select and buy a new battery and you have gotten everything out of the old battery, while with a single battery, people replace it early to prevent a failure with total power loss.

3. The extra costs also get you a second BMS, Fuse, Switch and battery monitor. If any of these fail on a passage or somewhere far from civilization, you can keep going.

4. More power. Because you select capacity for each battery so that you can work with just ine of them if need be, you will have more capacity than for a single battery where such reasoning isn’t followed (most choose “more than enough” capacity for a single battery).

These reference diagrams only show one MPPT, Inverter/Charger etc. but I recommend to get two of each for those as well, for similar reasons

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I feel sorry for Zurk; he may have deserved some of this but it should stop now. I’m sorry zurk, I think I steered you into a position you couldn’t know how weak it was

I hope you see this diagram is okay and I’m here to explain any part of it that you don’t understand. I’ll also discuss your diagram to help you see the differences:

- first you obviously have a catamaran so you have two engines, two alternators and two regulators. Just imagine all that double in my diagram.

- you have isolation for your start batteries using dc-dc converters, this is cool, I have the same thing. But it seems you have one start battery for each engine and can’t start an engine from the battery that’s with the other engine. I recommend you install a service A-B-OFF-A+B switch at each engine to choose a battery to start from.

- you seem to have two 260Ah start batteries plus two 260Ah house batteries. I guess they are all the same and all are LiFePO4. In that case I recommend to buy new start batteries, using two Odyssey PC2100 AGM batteries that are only 100Ah each, and add the two 260Ah batteries to your house bank so that you double it’s capacity.
The reason is that you have way too much capacity dedicated to starting the engines and rather low house bank capacity. Also, start batteries are always fully charged and this kills LiFePO4 batteries while AGM’s love it.
You need to reprogram the dc-dc chargers for an AGM charge profile

- Make sure each battery has a fuse and a disconnect switch. It’s required.

Originally Posted by zurk

not sure what you mean. the chargers are programmed to shut off when the batteries are 80% charged. and the batteries are disconnected from the load when they are < 60% full. the idea is to keep the start batteries between 60-80% only for max life. there is a full bluetooth BMS inside the batteries with a CAN bus.

Originally Posted by newhaul

Not in the states they aren't. Anything to deny a claim.
If it wasn't required by the marina I would not have it

Which part was required by your marina?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by PUDDLE JUMPER II

Which part was required by your marina?

Out of context my friend. My comment was in direct reference to and part of a discussion on insurance

If my marina didn't require liability insurancei wouldn't have it

[PUDDLE JUMPER II]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I have made sure to buy mppt controllers with dedicated remote on/off terminals in addition to the ve-direct interface, so I can control them remotely. I recently discovered that the 150/45 I used has been replaced with a model that doesn’t have this and you now need at least a 150/60 to get it.



Maybe they can operate in power supply mode too?

Wow... I just bought two 100/50 Charge Controllers--Still in their boxes. There is a huge price jump to the 150/60--- are their that much benefits (configurable feature sets) to this MPPT for a smallish boat with only 800 watts of solar starting out? Happy to hear your comments-- but I need to see and compare feature sets-- as it would be at least $1200 for two of them the way I wanted to make port and starboard solar independent MPPTs...

[PUDDLE JUMPER II]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Out of context my friend. My comment was in direct reference to and part of a discussion on insurance

If my marina didn't require liability insurancei wouldn't have it

Aaaahh... Sorry-- there was a mish-mosh tossed salad there for a while... Carry on sir...

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by PUDDLE JUMPER II

Wow... I just bought two 100/50 Charge Controllers--Still in their boxes. There is a huge price jump to the 150/60--- are their that much benefits (configurable feature sets) to this MPPT for a smallish boat with only 800 watts of solar starting out? Happy to hear your comments-- but I need to see and compare feature sets-- as it would be at least $1200 for two of them the way I wanted to make port and starboard solar independent MPPTs...

If you want a ve-direct interface like for a Cerbo-GX, and you want a remote on/off so it can be controlled by a BMS to stop charging when a cell is over voltage, then you need these. With the smaller models, you have to choose one or the other.

Also, this model has a programmable relay. One of my controllers tells my installation if it’s night or day (I switch night lights with that, and the anchor light) and I forgot what I had the other do… but it does something

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by PUDDLE JUMPER II

Aaaahh... Sorry-- there was a mish-mosh tossed salad there for a while... Carry on sir...

No problem you never know unless you ask .
Btw 6agw wire is good for your instal from MPPT to bank charging buss

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

If you want a ve-direct interface like for a Cerbo-GX, and you want a remote on/off so it can be controlled by a BMS to stop charging when a cell is over voltage, then you need these. With the smaller models, you have to choose one or the other.

Also, this model has a programmable relay. One of my controllers tells my installation if it’s night or day (I switch night lights with that, and the anchor light) and I forgot what I had the other do… but it does something

Anchor lights are what a $10 photo cell is for

[PUDDLE JUMPER II]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

If you want a ve-direct interface like for a Cerbo-GX, and you want a remote on/off so it can be controlled by a BMS to stop charging when a cell is over voltage, then you need these. With the smaller models, you have to choose one or the other.



Also, this model has a programmable relay. One of my controllers tells my installation if it’s night or day (I switch night lights with that, and the anchor light) and I forgot what I had the other do… but it does something [emoji3]

Copy that... Appreciate the note.

Sounds like I'll be on the phone alot today seeing if I can return these MPPTs... I have an older Furuno TZtouch2 (not the BB version)-- and it will only interface with Cerbo-GX because of the software age-- newer units have Victron integrated app for the Furuno TZtouch3. My freaking luck...

Any marine outfitter cheaper these days for these two MPPTs?

I always price check Defender and Amazon...

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by PUDDLE JUMPER II

Copy that... Appreciate the note.

Sounds like I'll be on the phone alot today seeing if I can return these MPPTs... I have an older Furuno TZtouch2 (not the BB version)-- and it will only interface with Cerbo-GX because of the software age-- newer units have Victron integrated app for the Furuno TZtouch3. My freaking luck...

Any marine outfitter cheaper these days for these two MPPTs?

I always price check Defender and Amazon...

I don’t think you need the more expensive ones. You must find out if and how your LFP batteries control chargers.

[DeValency]

Thanks s/v Jedi for the initiating the design and discussion. This is going to be a major resource to many of us upgrading to LFP and externally regulated higher power alternators. Thanks also to the other contributors in this thread for the good comments.

Being aware of the need to protect the alternator from a sudden charge termination by the LFP, Balmar's recommendations were programmed on my MC-618 - e.g. terminate alternator charging before the LFP BMS disconnects.

The second protection line as discussed here, by disconnecting the alternator control are of course almost the ultimate active safety feature.

In my case, I consider a passive protection as the starter batteries are staying as AGM, at least for now, and I also left, for now, two (relatively new) group 31 AGM house batteries, that are normally connected to the Victron ArgoFET 200A battery isolator one of the three separate outputs.
Meaning there is always some load on the alternator from the AGM batteries. This load may be minimal, as when the LFP reaches the targeted 13.8V (my BMS custom setting), the AGM is not yet 100% charged.

Comments? agree? disagree?

Thanks