Lithium and Insurance

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by BlueH2Obound

Give it a few days, and insurance companies and other keyboard commandos will be screaming that all the boats damaged in Hurricane Ian that had LiFePO4 batteries installed were damaged/sunk because of their lithium battery installations.

Does anyone have any FACTUAL, firsthand documentation that you can direct me to of any boat loss where LiFePO4 batteries, installed with due care and diligence, was determined by competent authorities to be the DIRECT CAUSE of the loss?

Note: I'm not interested in what someone heard from their sister's hairdresser's dead Aunt, so please don't waste your and my time posting anecdotal "evidence".

I've seen several boat losses/damage that have occurred where LiFePO4 batteries were PRESENT, but had nothing to do with the cause of the damage, yet they were touted by members of several forums as being the DIRECT CAUSE of the loss. . . .

One of them offered up on an RV site as having been "caused" by the "LiFePO4 installation", and used as "proof" of how dangerous the technology was, was later determined to be a result of a failed propane/electric refrigerator which caused the fire. Yes, LiFePO4 batteries WERE present. On the floor of the salon, unopened, still in the manufacturers shipping boxes awaiting installation . . . .

Unfortunately insurance companies often listen to the loudest voice, instead of science, reason, and facts.

The latest Professional Boatbuilder has an article by Ed Sherman (ABYC). Below is a quote he made in the article.

[Simi 60]

Copied from Facebook so could be as real or made-up as anything on the interwebs
My bolding for emphasis if TLDR

Copied from a post in a batteries on boats page.
Not everyone here is a member of ABYC, so I thought I would share this newsletter from them today regarding their tests of LiFePo4 batteries and potential for fire. This may be of interest to folks considering safety issues around lithium and discussing with surveyors.
===========
September 2022 Newsletter
ABYC President's Message
Common Sense
ABYC is built on a tradition of common sense and real world experiences. Early in my technical days, I was told ABYC designed the Standards so the backyard boatbuilder could achieve desired results. Testing and methodology were crafted in plain language for a “common sense” approach to a safe product.
We did not set aside best engineering practices for simplicity; the technical committee is packed with engineers and data-crunchers overseeing the process of drafting and updating the Standards. This balance has helped ABYC create useable, reliable, and relevant documents that help to achieve an unmatched level of safety in our industry. This is why, when the US Coast Guard asked us to look into potential problems with Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO 4) batteries on boats, we jumped at the chance.
The ABYC Technical Department, with input from the industry, recreated a number of scenarios based on accident narratives that claimed LiFePO 4 batteries to be the cause of a fire. In our on-site test lab, our team subjected batteries to conditions ranging from “normal” operations to extreme use and abuse. We purchased units built for the marine environment with robust battery management systems. We also included recycled batteries available from mass retailers, with an “optional” battery management system and no clear instructions from the battery or cell manufacturer. We tried to replicate sketchy behavior which is the fear of insurance companies and regulators alike.
Do you know what we found? We couldn’t start the fire (Sorry Billy Joel). We witnessed swollen cells, completely dead batteries, and multiple safety cutoffs (when not bypassed). We had a very hot summer here in MD. Even the high heat didn’t come close to a spontaneous combustion scenario.
We arranged calls with industry experts, and we asked them what we might be missing in our testing. What can we throw at these batteries to replicate the accidents we were hearing about? No one had anything to add, short of putting these batteries directly in a fire (which we did). We were able to add LiFePO 4 batteries to a local International Association of Arson Investigators (IAAI) boat burn--even there, no one detected any indication that the batteries themselves contributed to the fire. Many of us were fully expecting a report where we were able to replicate an unsafe situation and make some recommendations.
Our full report will be sent to the USCG in due course, and then ABYC will report on our findings. This being a mere President's letter please take it as what it is: My observations while watching our Technical Department do some great work. But, the research and testing may show us that we must take this discussion to the test labs for another round. Our common sense approach to testing has proven again to be the foundation for getting to the bottom of a scenario many of us (including myself) thought would reveal itself in short order. Stand by for formal reporting as we continue our work.
- John
jadey@abycinc.org

[RaymondR]

Hi Simi 60,

Thank all the gods for your post.

I purchased a couple of expensive LiPO4 batteries a couple of years ago and whilst trying to educate myself about the technology started to read about boat fires involving lithium batteries and was very reluctant to install them. Whilst still proceeding with the lithium adoption I have began to research methods of fireproofing my battery box to lessen the risk and am still involved in this research.

However your post has now indicated that whilst this may still be desirable from a general safety viewpoint it is not so necessary from a peace of mind viewpoint as your post indicates that the LiPO4 technology appear no more risky than the extant lead acid batteries now installed in the boat.

Good work mate.

[mitiempo]

Here is a short video showing the danger of some Lithium batteries vs the safety of LiFePo4. short and interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8xNjz73p80

[RaymondR]

I watched that video and I seriously doubt that those cells were genuine LiPO4.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

I watched that video and I seriously doubt that those cells were genuine LiPO4.

Why is that?

Here's another:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R9xZf4p8PkQ

[T1 Terry]

I want to see an AGM, flooded cell and Gel cell Lead acid battery put to that test ...... it would be spectacular. Next would be a test in an enclosed container with an LFP 12v battery over charged till it vented, then the same test with a lead acid battery, the results would have everyone dragging their lead acid batteries out and replacing them with the far safer LFP or LYP chemistry batteries.

Lead acid batteries were only tolerated because there was no alternative readily available, if they were to be introduced today with LFP or LYP batteries readily available, they wouldn't make past the basic safety tests.

T1 Terry

[Dave_S]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Copied from Facebook so could be as real or made-up as anything on the interwebs
My bolding for emphasis if TLDR

This is on the ABYC website available to members.

Looking forward to the official report. I have been hesitant because of all the chat.

[goboatingnow]

Class ABC foam or Class D can effectively fight LFP fires if in the very unlikely event one starts.

[BlueH2Obound]

I'm a little confused here. Your post appears to be a post in support of LiFePO4 batteries installations by a reputable ABYC respected author.

Are you posting that as an example of a LiFePO4 battery incident? Because the verbiage states that it was a "Lithium Cobalt Oxide" battery, NOT a LiFePO4. In addition, the verbiage you quoted states that the writer is "not aware of any fires resulting from iron-phosphate technology, so batteries of that chemistry would be my recommendation."

I'm not saying LiFePO4 is the end all, but I haven't been able to come up with a single verifiable, FACTUAL incident where LIFePO4 batteries installed with due care and diligence started a fire. I'd really like to know if any exist.

Once again, does ANYONE have a verifiable FACTUAL incident where LiFePO4 batteries started a boat fire?


Quote:
Originally Posted by BlueH2Obound
Give it a few days, and insurance companies and other keyboard commandos will be screaming that all the boats damaged in Hurricane Ian that had LiFePO4 batteries installed were damaged/sunk because of their lithium battery installations.

Does anyone have any FACTUAL, firsthand documentation that you can direct me to of any boat loss where LiFePO4 batteries, installed with due care and diligence, was determined by competent authorities to be the DIRECT CAUSE of the loss?

Note: I'm not interested in what someone heard from their sister's hairdresser's dead Aunt, so please don't waste your and my time posting anecdotal "evidence".

I've seen several boat losses/damage that have occurred where LiFePO4 batteries were PRESENT, but had nothing to do with the cause of the damage, yet they were touted by members of several forums as being the DIRECT CAUSE of the loss. . . .

One of them offered up on an RV site as having been "caused" by the "LiFePO4 installation", and used as "proof" of how dangerous the technology was, was later determined to be a result of a failed propane/electric refrigerator which caused the fire. Yes, LiFePO4 batteries WERE present. On the floor of the salon, unopened, still in the manufacturers shipping boxes awaiting installation . . . .

Unfortunately insurance companies often listen to the loudest voice, instead of science, reason, and facts.

Originally Posted by mitiempo

The latest Professional Boatbuilder has an article by Ed Sherman (ABYC). Below is a quote he made in the article.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by BlueH2Obound

I'm a little confused here. Your post appears to be a post in support of LiFePO4 batteries installations by a reputable ABYC respected author.

Are you posting that as an example of a LiFePO4 battery incident? Because the verbiage states that it was a "Lithium Cobalt Oxide" battery, NOT a LiFePO4. In addition, the verbiage you quoted states that the writer is "not aware of any fires resulting from iron-phosphate technology, so batteries of that chemistry would be my recommendation."

I'm not saying LiFePO4 is the end all, but I haven't been able to come up with a single verifiable, FACTUAL incident where LIFePO4 batteries installed with due care and diligence started a fire. I'd really like to know if any exist.

Once again, does ANYONE have a verifiable FACTUAL incident where LiFePO4 batteries started a boat fire?

Ed Sherman shows a picture of what is left of a Lithium Cobalt Oxide battery after a fire. He goes on to say that he has never seen or heard of a similar event with LiFePo4 and neither have I.

I also posted 2 videos showing the stability of LiFePo4 after being holed.

I think, based on the testing shown as well as other tests easily available online that LiFePo4 is very safe and will not burst into flames. The real danger is Lipo batteries in a IPhone, IPad, or other product which we know can have serious issues.

[goboatingnow]

Both ABYC and ISO clearly colluded on production of their respective lithium standards.

To not make the LFP safety distinction in those standards ( as well as omitting LTO ) has done an enormous disservice to those standards bodies and will incorrectly inform insurance to lump LFP and LTO with other much more dangerous LI categories

The complete farce of the then letter proclaiming LFP to be safe by the ABYC president throws a whole cloud of doubt over the TE-13 process . It’s ludicrous

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Both ABYC and ISO clearly colluded on production of their respective lithium standards.

To not make the LFP safety distinction in those standards ( as well as omitting LTO ) has done an enormous disservice to those standards bodies and will incorrectly inform insurance to lump LFP and LTO with other much more dangerous LI categories

The complete farce of the then letter proclaiming LFP to be safe by the ABYC president throws a whole cloud of doubt over the TE-13 process . It’s ludicrous

Truth. The fact is that manufactures of volatile chemistries influenced T-13, and of course would not allow a rule that disallowed their product.

I am happy to hear that ABYC might at least provide future reports or update the standard to make LiFePO4 easier and more preferable.

[CharlieJ]

@wholybee

Truth. The fact is that manufactures of volatile chemistries influenced T-13, and of course would not allow a rule that disallowed their product.

This is simply not true.

[skipperpete]

The professional mariners forum “gcaptain” has quite a lot of articles and posts relating to emerging chemistry battery fires both in electric powered commercial vessels and as cargo fires on container ships and car carriers. No shortage of reported incidents. The focus is more on putting the fires out after they begin though, not installing, charging and maintaining the batteries.