Lithium and Insurance

[CharlieJ]

@skipperpete #180
I too subscribe to gCaptain and read, with interest, the stories concerning battery fires. In my recollection, most, if not all, of these fires involving lithium batteries do not involve LFP batteries.

[Rumrace]

Doesn’t matter. The insurance company will screw you anyway. It’s their job. I’m thinking half of Florida boaters lost or can’t get insurance next week.
“Sorry Mam your house is only insured for zombie attacks , and your stove with a $250. Deductible.
Geico’s 170mph Cat burnt and sank they know the risks. Can’t insure a race boat for anything but theft.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

@wholybee


This is simply not true.

Well it is or ABYC is technically inept. It’s one or the other.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

The professional mariners forum “gcaptain” has quite a lot of articles and posts relating to emerging chemistry battery fires both in electric powered commercial vessels and as cargo fires on container ships and car carriers. No shortage of reported incidents. The focus is more on putting the fires out after they begin though, not installing, charging and maintaining the batteries.

Again not LFP or LTO technology in the main.

Carry several tons of high capacity lead acid and the exact same risks exists

[skipperpete]

One of the US navy’s more expensive ships ( Bonhomme Richard) became a total structural loss from what is believed to have been a forklift or a lithium battery fire..... believed strongly enough at the court martial to exonerate the sailor arrested on arson charges ....but the final conclusion was “ cause undetermined.

[rgleason]

Lithium [What?] fire? Lithium-ion?

Originally Posted by skipperpete

One of the US navy’s more expensive ships ( Bonhomme Richard) became a total structural loss from what is believed to have been a forklift or a lithium battery fire..... believed strongly enough at the court martial to exonerate the sailor arrested on arson charges ....but the final conclusion was “ cause undetermined.

[Wander4Wonder]

this wont help the perception vs reality of LFP vs LTO

https://nypost.com/2022/10/06/electr...hurricane-ian/

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Lithium [What?] fire? Lithium-ion?

https://www.fluxpower.com/how-to-cho...rklift-battery


I believe it was Lithium-ion!
Very big difference.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

I want to see an AGM, flooded cell and Gel cell Lead acid battery put to that test ...... it would be spectacular. Next would be a test in an enclosed container with an LFP 12v battery over charged till it vented, then the same test with a lead acid battery, the results would have everyone dragging their lead acid batteries out and replacing them with the far safer LFP or LYP chemistry batteries.

Lead acid batteries were only tolerated because there was no alternative readily available, if they were to be introduced today with LFP or LYP batteries readily available, they wouldn't make past the basic safety tests.

T1 Terry

fully agree to that.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Wander4Wonder

this wont help the perception vs reality of LFP vs LTO

https://nypost.com/2022/10/06/electr...hurricane-ian/

they have all Li-ion or Li-cobalt...for a lifepo4 the energy density is not high enough and would weight to much for a proper EV

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

they have all Li-ion or Li-cobalt...for a lifepo4 the energy density is not high enough and would weight to much for a proper EV

Actually no. Tesla is using LFP in about half its vehicles, and most of the larger vehicles (transit buses, garbage trucks, ski groomers, etc…) are also LFP.

[Llarian]

Originally Posted by hjohnson

Actually no. Tesla is using LFP in about half its vehicles, and most of the larger vehicles (transit buses, garbage trucks, ski groomers, etc…) are also LFP.

Yes, but at least for Tesla that is a very recent change and there are a ton of Teslas on the road that are still using a more volatile Cobalt of Nickel based Lithium Ion cell.

[PaulCrawhorn]

Yes relatively, but much less so in the later developed world, often 100% of Tesla vehicles there are LFP

and not recent, been years now.

My terminology:

Lithium family, aka LI chemistries

include LFP and LTO the safe ones

"li-ion" specifically reserved for the higher density chemistries at nominal 3.6-3.7Vpc

more often used for EVs

all much more fire prone and shorter cycle lifespans

[BlueH2Obound]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

Lead acid batteries were only tolerated because there was no alternative readily available, if they were to be introduced today with LFP or LYP batteries readily available, they wouldn't make past the basic safety tests.
T1 Terry

There are many applications in today's world where lead acid batteries are perfectly satisfactory, and there is no need for the many proven benefits of LiFePO4 technology. A perfect example is automobile starter batteries.

Yep, imagine coming up with a new battery in today's world that has the following characteristics:

• Up to twice the weight of currently available technologies
• You can routinely use only up to half of the battery capacity that manufactures/salesman advertise it holds without seriously damaging/reducing the life of the battery
• if damaged, it can leak a caustic liquid into your boat, which if mixed with salt water, can produce a toxic vapor (chlorine) that can incapacitate you, or cause death, depending on the exposure
• If accidentally overcharged, or if an internal failure occurs, the battery casing may expand, potentially violently, spraying or leaking highly corrosive liquid and flammable gas around the premises
• Vents a flammable, and potentially explosive gas routinely during charging, dangerous only if there is an ignition source near . . . . wait, it's a Battery . . . . connected to wires, and lots of connections . . . . where could there possibly be an ignition source?!?
• Manufacture/disposal of which has lead (see what I did there?) to some of the largest Environmental Superfund sites present in the United States, not to mention elsewhere in the world . . .
• Oh, but the only saving grace is that they are less expensive than available alternatives . . .

I think that many of the skeptics push the alleged negatives of LiFePO4 either through herd ignorance, or when in reality they are just . . . . . well . . . . . let's say frugal

Just sayin'!

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by PaulCrawhorn

Yes relatively, but much less so in the later developed world, often 100% of Tesla vehicles there are LFP

and not recent, been years now.

My terminology:

Lithium family, aka LI chemistries

include LFP and LTO the safe ones

"li-ion" specifically reserved for the higher density chemistries at nominal 3.6-3.7Vpc

more often used for EVs

all much more fire prone and shorter cycle lifespans

Li-ion is just the name for the lithium based chemistry family.

The dangerous lithium cells are where they mix multiple compounds to make up the active material in the battery, as an example https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithiu..._cobalt_oxides but sound safe by using the 3 letter name NMC, some have aluminium mixed in there as well and other rare compounds. These are all actually covered by the LiPo label https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithiu..._cobalt_oxides and the term is often confused with LiFeP04 because there is an Land i a P and an 0 in the chemical name for an LFP cell (lithium ferrous Phosphate) LYP cells throw another spanner in the works, Lithium Yttrium Ferrous Phosphate, so LYP is a safer name to avoid the confusion.
It used to be "if there was oxide in the name, then beware" but LTO cells stuffed that idea, Lithium Titanate Oxide https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/what-...ly-cynthia-pan

T1 Terry