Lithium and Insurance

[shimari]

My new boat has a Mastervolt lithium batteries - disclosed on survey. I had no problem obtaining insurance in the UK or US. Nor does there appear to be a premium.

[goboatingnow]

3rd party installations of lithium have resulted in a number of fires with boat wiring not up to scratch which is why insurance companies are giving them a wide berth. Even on my new boat with lithium factory installed there is an insurance excess of 50% of the value of the boat should the cause of the incident be related to lithium.

As opposed to hearsay BS , you might ask him to cite his references because I’ve never heard of serious incident with LFP batteries

I asked the owner because my boat is designed to be lightweight and hence lithium would suit it better. Lithium also affords fast charging, if one has the capacity to charge quickly and safely, which gets complex if you want the alternator to directly charge the lithium batteries. Hence typically external regulators, continued charging of the lead acid starter battery, a BMS, etc. But it seems the safest way to charge is with a DC-DC, and those have charging bottlenecks that can effect the advantages of charging lithium, which can be charged quickly if the alternator can be prevented from overheating. Also with more charge going through, the wiring has to be heavier. Plus if charging stops before the alternator stops, the alternator burns out due to no where for its charge to go. So alternators also need to charge a lead acid at the same time as a fail safe for a BMS stopping the charge while the alternator still generates. Cooling of the alternator is also an issue, because if they run at high capacity, they get very hot and the boat is unlikely to have extra cooling capacity for the alternator to be running at several times its expected output. The fast charging capability of lithium also means it is riskier as it can dissipate its energy much quicker, which is another danger. And who knows - that may compromise the earthing capacity of a boat. I don't understand the earth side of boats properly, and all boats are different as well in that regard, so I am told, and it seems, the people telling me don't understand either!

Hence the complexity of lithium

This is actually more BS. It astounds me , absolutely astounds me , that people will spend literally 1000 of $$$ of LFP batteries and not fix the crappy 2 buck automotive alternator regulator on a boat ,( which should never have been there in the first place even with Lead Acid batteries )

such a regulator is not designed to charge batteries at all , yet instead of fixing the regulator. ( and including proper temperature regulation ) we have all sorts of “ stupid “ complex work arounds like leaving a lead acid in circuit or using complex high power DC DC converters ( all of which are a bad idea or add unnecessary complexity )

I’ve worked with LFP batteries for years in industrial applications , they are much safer then lead acid , can handle far greater charging stresses and tend to be extremely robust and reliable

An LFP install simply needs two simple protections , a low voltage cutoff protection and a high voltage cutoff protection , of course as in ALL high capacity battery solutions you always fuse the battery outputs to protect down stream circuits.

That’s it , everything else is a “ nice to have “ you don’t need charge equalisers or balances or other fancy monitors

You an even simply protect the crappy alternator with an external robust TVS protection circuit if you don’t want to change the regulator. ( please change the stupid thing )

Lithium is made complex by boats owners and installers who hardly understand basic DC and shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a boats wiring system ,coupled with Li scare stories that are bounced around that have nothing to do with LFP chemistry , and aided and abetted by installers that want to flog you expensive systems and charge you the earth for it.

LFP is a very safe robust system , made complex by vested interests and abetted by scare stories from other chemistry combinations

It gets my goat.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Lithium is made complex by boats owners and installers who hardly understand basic DC and shouldn’t be allowed anywhere near a boats wiring system ,coupled with Li scare stories that are bounced around that have nothing to do with LFP chemistry , and aided and abetted by installers that want to flog you expensive systems and charge you the earth for it.

.

The monkeys can't count to banana.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

That comment was in reference to the DIY builder who might think any costs resulting from a faulty battery would be met by the battery supplier.
When a DIY installer uses drop in batteries, the battery supplier will only cover the cost of the battery, not subsequent damage or costs that might have been involved if their battery failed.
As to whether the insurance policy for the vessel in the event of a fire would be covered by the insurer if they could link the fire back to any DIY electrical work ...... you don't need me to paint the picture of how that would go :lol:

T1 Terry

I'll be a little obstinate and say you actually do have to paint that picture. Unless your insurance policy specifically states that it is invalidated in case of DIY work, then the insurance company simply must legally pay out in case of a claim, lithium or not. And despite asking over and over in several threads here and on the docks with sea lawyers who insist these "no DIY" clauses are common, not a single person has ever been able to produce actual evidence of one of these DIY clauses, leading me to believe they are common in sea lawyers heads but rare in actual reality.

That's before you start to ask how may insurance companies have spent $150,000 to retrieve a $125,000 boat from the sea floor and conduct an accident investigation thorough enough to determine without a doubt that a specific piece of DIY electrical work caused the fire....just to avoid paying out a claim? Again, lots of stories people heard on the dock, I would love to see an actual documented case of refused compensation due to DIY work?

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

An LFP install simply needs two simple protections , a low voltage cutoff protection and a high voltage cutoff protection , of course as in ALL high capacity battery solutions you always fuse the battery outputs to protect down stream circuits.
.

Does not LFP need also low temp and high temp protection? Everything I've read indicates that if you charge LFP below 0c or above 55c(I believe) permanent damage can occur to the batteries.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by pcmm

Does not LFP need also low temp and high temp protection? Everything I've read indicates that if you charge LFP below 0c or above 55c(I believe) permanent damage can occur to the batteries.

Sorry yes to be precise they should be included but that’s trivial to add these days.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

As opposed to hearsay BS , you might ask him to cite his references because I’ve never heard of serious incident with LFP batteries
....

LFP is a very safe robust system , made complex by vested interests and abetted by scare stories from other chemistry combinations

It gets my goat.

Its a bit difficult to contact him for references s- he flew last Thursday to France, to collect his boat, an Amel 50. He was not speaking hearsay at all. It repeated what he was told, and having just insured a $US 1.5 million boat, he's very much in touch with his insurance costs.

And you did not mention a major issue with Lithium Iron - its efficiency. Being able to dissipate energy faster does not make a battery dangerous - but it being able to unload its power quickly can be dangerous.

I'd like to replace my setup with Lithium - and I am familiar with it in an off road caravan. I want it in my boat because it saves weight, and space as well. My boat will go faster if I save 50kg. Not much faster, but everything counts and I just like Lithium.

But I'll probably go Carbon lead batteries. Which also are more efficient, but insurance companies only pick out Lithium.

You might also consider why insurance companies are (or most of them) punishing Lithium usage. And the answer is quite simple. Their experience in boat failures has shown Lithium is causing insurance claims. Which is what the owner of the Amel said. Funny about that ...

[Melbourne Park]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

I'll be a little obstinate and say you actually do have to paint that picture. Unless your insurance policy specifically states that it is invalidated in case of DIY work, then the insurance company simply must legally pay out in case of a claim, lithium or not. And despite asking over and over in several threads here and on the docks with sea lawyers who insist these "no DIY" clauses are common, not a single person has ever been able to produce actual evidence of one of these DIY clauses, leading me to believe they are common in sea lawyers heads but rare in actual reality.

...I would love to see an actual documented case of refused compensation due to DIY work?

I'd have thought a certified electrical survey would make any insurance company content. But it does seem insurance companies see more risk in Lithium usage. That would be based on statistical evidence. With new boats going to Lithium, it seems crazy to me ... but it is still happening.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Melbourne Park

I'd have thought a certified electrical survey would make any insurance company content. But it does seem insurance companies see more risk in Lithium usage. That would be based on statistical evidence. With new boats going to Lithium, it seems crazy to me ... but it is still happening.

Again I feel like I must be living in some parallel universe here.....I have never heard of a "certified electrical survey" for insurance, can anyone provide an example of the clause requiring this in any policy? Can anyone provide an example of a "lithium" clause or "no lithium" clause as the case may be in an actual policy?

As best I can tell this is just like the mysterious "no DIY" clause that everyone references and pontificates on but no one is able to produce an actual example of in the wild.

If anyone is actually having a hard time because of any of these alleged clauses feel free to let me know and I can refer you to literally every insurance company I've had over the past 20 years that do not have these clauses.

[kiwin]

As I stated I have just insured a boat with LFP batteries. The boat was of course surveyed. I had to agree to a clause accepting 50% of any loss due to misbehaviour of the Lithium batteries. No electrical survey was asked for or offered.

[kiwin]

The insurer is Pantaenius Australia. Here is the verbiage:
"Please note in consideration to the bank of lithium ion batteries, the following warranty must be applied;

Any claim associated with fire caused by a lithium ion battery, including consequential damage, shall require the client to pay the first 50% of the claim or the deductible whichever is greater, this clause supersedes clause "5. Deductibles" in the PDS."

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by kiwin

The insurer is Pantaenius Australia. Here is the verbiage:
"Please note in consideration to the bank of lithium ion batteries, the following warranty must be applied;

Any claim associated with fire caused by a lithium ion battery, including consequential damage, shall require the client to pay the first 50% of the claim or the deductible whichever is greater, this clause supersedes clause "5. Deductibles" in the PDS."

Seems a miss communication here. The Insurance company thinks you have Li-ion batteries. you state you have lifepo4.. They are insuring a much more hazardous battery pack than you state you have...

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by pcmm

Seems a miss communication here. The Insurance company thinks you have Li-ion batteries. you state you have lifepo4.. They are insuring a much more hazardous battery pack than you state you have...

Not to mention accepting a 50% deductible for every cell phone, laptop battery, heck even long lasting fire detector battery on the boat which actually are lithium ion.

[kiwin]

LFP is still lithium ion.

[pcmm]

Originally Posted by kiwin

LFP is still lithium ion.

Lithium Ion and LifePO4 behave VERY differently. Its like Gasoline and Diesel..