Lithium and Insurance

[kiwin]

In Australia all marinas require $10million third party insurance. NZ varies between $2million and $5million

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by T1 Terry

That comment was in reference to the DIY builder who might think any costs resulting from a faulty battery would be met by the battery supplier.
When a DIY installer uses drop in batteries, the battery supplier will only cover the cost of the battery, not subsequent damage or costs that might have been involved if their battery failed.
As to whether the insurance policy for the vessel in the event of a fire would be covered by the insurer if they could link the fire back to any DIY electrical work ...... you don't need me to paint the picture of how that would go :lol:

T1 Terry

Insurance exclude nowadays all risks and just wanna collect money, nothing is left from the original idea insurance: the community all pay small premiums and the risks are covered for everyone and paid for the few that got hit. worked 27 years in top management and happy retired now..


Lifepo4 DIY or professionally installed is safer as lead and AGM as these system are much more supervised.

And how many boats caught fire by the "supersafe" AGMs running dry and getting a runaway?


myself I had in the last 2 years:
in my 2 years old f31 BMW the AGM had a runaway and i riped it out at the highway parking spot short before it caught fire...check by BMW all ok with BMW, it was a faulty AGM
last year i tossed 2 AGM overboard before they got fire, figured regulator of alternator was slightly faulty causing it to dry out over time...

a friend had a small fire also caused by a runaway of an AGM
i installed Lifeo4 DIY because i know what cells and BMS I got.

[Ballsnall]

Originally Posted by CaptainRivet

Insurance exclude nowadays all risks and just wanna collect money,

Gotta agree with that. Deny, deny deny, more denied claims = more profit.

Lifepo4 DIY or professionally installed is safer as lead and AGM

Unfortunately, excluding navigational errors, fire & flooding is the major risk for total loss so I can understand some caution with a new battery technology. Hopefully will change in time with mass adoption.

[Cyrus Safdari]

I dont see how the type of battery aboard has anythung to do with poor wiring and installation which is the cause of fires
Gel, AGM LiFePo4 what difference does that make if there's a bad instal?

If anything LifePo4 is safer since theres no gassing off
The lithium batteries aboard a boat is not the same as that in callphones rtc that would catch fire
Also the idea thay the lithium in the batteries somehow reacts with water is false. Pure lithium does react with water but not enough of it in LifePo4 batteries

[Anders]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Wow, you really get nothing from your insurance in Australia. I am struck by the 10 year old rule, so effectively no insurance for a boat more than 10 years old? And "have not told Us something You should have", that could mean absolutely anything! Why even bother to get insurance unless its required for something like your marina?

They will not cover the engine if it's more than 10 years old or not professionally installed. They wil still cover the rest of the boat.
The "have not told Us something You should have" sounds like it's from the claims section in the insurance but there's no reason I should have to tell them about installing LiFePO4.

[ozsailer]

Originally Posted by Anders

They will not cover the engine if it's more than 10 years old or not professionally installed. They wil still cover the rest of the boat.
The "have not told Us something You should have" sounds like it's from the claims section in the insurance but there's no reason I should have to tell them about installing LiFePO4.

My last comment on this - Hundreds of posts and articles have been written on the danger of lithium batteries over the years regardless of your personal views. Look at the lengths airline go to ensure no lithium batteries are stored in cargo holds of planes. Indeed there are cases of lithium batteries causing fires on planes and also on boats (also quite recently) Installing and updating your battery bank to lithium is a major upgrade. Based on all the information available not only to you but to any insurance company it is my opinion based on our insurance companies here in Oz, this is most definitely something I would personally advise them off if I did such an upgrade. Purely my personnel opinion.

Ozsailer

[Anders]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

My last comment on this - Hundreds of posts and articles have been written on the danger of lithium batteries over the years regardless of your personal views. Look at the lengths airline go to ensure no lithium batteries are stored in cargo holds of planes. Indeed there are cases of lithium batteries causing fires on planes and also on boats (also quite recently) Installing and updating your battery bank to lithium is a major upgrade. Based on all the information available not only to you but to any insurance company it is my opinion based on our insurance companies here in Oz, this is most definitely something I would personally advise them off if I did such an upgrade. Purely my personnel opinion.

Ozsailer

There are many different lithium battery chemistry and most of them I would not have on a boat but LiFePO4 are safer than lead acid batteries. Not sure why you mention airlines since they usually don't like either lihtium or lead acid except for small batteries like those that are in a wheelchair.

[kiwin]

Even a cursory Google reveals many LFP battery fires including explosions and fatalities. One if the issues is that storing energy is risky. If the energy is liberated too quickly bad things happen. One of the attractions of Lithium batteries is the greater energy storage capacity attainable within a given volume and weight. And the greater the energy stored, the worse things get when it is let out in an unplanned fashion. So just by dint of the generally larger Ah capacities installed the risk is greater. The battery on my boat is 1200 Ah. The original lead acid battery was, I believe, 800Ah, so a 50% increase.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by kiwin

Even a cursory Google reveals many LFP battery fires including explosions and fatalities. . .

LFP as in lifepo4?
Please, if a cursory Google reveals them please provide links.

So just by dint of the generally larger Ah capacities installed the risk is greater. The battery on my boat is 1200 Ah. The original lead acid battery was, I believe, 800Ah, so a 50% increase

Yeah,vim pretty sure that's not how it works.
If it did, if you tripled your battery size again you'd blow up just thinking about it.

[fxykty]

This thread has prompted me to take another close look through our boat’s policy, offered by a UK-based insurance company. It is for a Jersey registered 19 year old sailboat (Certificate of British Registration) owned by a couple with a permanent address in New Zealand. For the most recent renewal the boat is located in Australia.

None of the restrictions quoted above in this thread apply to our policy. LFP is fine, machinery is covered (though if we were a power boat capable of 17 knots our machinery would only be covered if less than 7 years old), age of the boat is not mentioned, etc.

We’ve had two claims in the five years we’ve owned the boat and one third party damage only claim - all have been paid without difficulty, though we did go through our NZ-based broker with each one. Our premiums paid so far just barely outweigh the amounts we’ve claimed.

We increased the third party liability to AUD 10M for our time in Australia but for the preceding 8 months had no problem with any Australian marina with only NZD 5M limit in the previous cover.

So if your policy has some weird or unreasonable clauses in it, shop around. Use a broker and negotiate.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Anders

They will not cover the engine if it's more than 10 years old or not professionally installed. They wil still cover the rest of the boat.
The "have not told Us something You should have" sounds like it's from the claims section in the insurance but there's no reason I should have to tell them about installing LiFePO4.

I really don't understand this "more than 10 years old" concept. Does it mean:
a. If you're sailing with your engine off and a boat runs into you and floods your engine room damaging the engine, they won't pay for that damage if the engine happens to be 11 years old? The age seems completely irrelevant in that case doesn't it?
b. If your engine throws a rod and it's 11 years old they won't pay for the repair? Does any insurance policy pay for a repair of an engine regardless of age?
c. If your 11 year old bilge pump catches fire and burns the boat to the water line they'll pay for the whole boat except the $100 pump? That seems like a pointless exclusion?
d. Some other combination I am missing here?

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by kiwin

Even a cursory Google reveals many LFP battery fires including explosions and fatalities. One if the issues is that storing energy is risky. If the energy is liberated too quickly bad things happen. One of the attractions of Lithium batteries is the greater energy storage capacity attainable within a given volume and weight. And the greater the energy stored, the worse things get when it is let out in an unplanned fashion. So just by dint of the generally larger Ah capacities installed the risk is greater. The battery on my boat is 1200 Ah. The original lead acid battery was, I believe, 800Ah, so a 50% increase.

Even a cursory Google reveals many fires not caused by LFP batteries including explosions and fatalities. Many of these are caused by stored energy in batteries of all chemistry, liquid, and compressed fuels. If you were really going to use the "cursory Google" and "larger capacity" logic you would most certainly require insurance exclusions for any propane or gasoline stored on a boat. A gallon of gasoline contains the equivalent of over 3,500 Ah of energy, and almost every single one of us has that in our dingy at least.

There are a few luddites in the insurance industry that reflexively decided new=risky and threw these clauses in. Fortunately as others have pointed out they are in the minority and we can all vote with our feet. We certainly shouldn't use their opaque reasoning as justification that a product actually is more dangerous than what we're already using for energy.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

My last comment on this - Hundreds of posts and articles have been written on the danger of lithium batteries over the years regardless of your personal views. Look at the lengths airline go to ensure no lithium batteries are stored in cargo holds of planes. Indeed there are cases of lithium batteries causing fires on planes and also on boats (also quite recently) Installing and updating your battery bank to lithium is a major upgrade. Based on all the information available not only to you but to any insurance company it is my opinion based on our insurance companies here in Oz, this is most definitely something I would personally advise them off if I did such an upgrade. Purely my personnel opinion.

Ozsailer

Your typical aircraft has a minimum of several hundred lithium chemistry batteries on every flight. I personally carry a phone, ereader, and laptop pretty much every time I fly so that's 3 for me alone. Every one of them has enough energy to cause a very destructive fire even if only partially charged. Before COVID there were 40,000,000 commercial flights a year, lets be conservative and assume 100 different batteries on each flight so 4 billion batteries fly each year. That's about 11 million per day. Let's assume that lithium chemistry fires are "rampant", we'll say that one catches fire .1% of flights. That would be 11,000 flights a day with lithium battery fires. Lets be more conservative and say .0001% of the flights. That's still 110 lithium fires per day. How many lithium fires happened in flight in the last year? The past 3 years?

[Anders]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

I really don't understand this "more than 10 years old" concept. Does it mean:
a. If you're sailing with your engine off and a boat runs into you and floods your engine room damaging the engine, they won't pay for that damage if the engine happens to be 11 years old? The age seems completely irrelevant in that case doesn't it?
b. If your engine throws a rod and it's 11 years old they won't pay for the repair? Does any insurance policy pay for a repair of an engine regardless of age?
c. If your 11 year old bilge pump catches fire and burns the boat to the water line they'll pay for the whole boat except the $100 pump? That seems like a pointless exclusion?
d. Some other combination I am missing here?

B. There could be more than engine since the word machinery is not defined in the short text posted here. I did not think any mechanical faults would be covered either but Pantaenius UK does cover the engine for mechanical faults until it's 5 years old if it's serviced properly.

[sailorboy1]

So .....................

will someone invested in this thread go through it and make a list of the insurance companies that aren't allowing lithium?