Lithium and Insurance

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by Anders

B. There could be more than engine since the word machinery is not defined in the short text posted here. I did not think any mechanical faults would be covered either but Pantaenius UK does cover the engine for mechanical faults until it's 5 years old if it's serviced properly.

I have to admit I am learning a lot on this thread. I had no idea that there were regular policies that covered mechanical fault repairs!

[Montanan]

Fire aboard cargo ship in Atlantic Ocean may have been intensified by electric-vehicle batteries from luxury cars like Porsches and Bentley
Feb 21

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...re%20alive.%22

The fire on the Felicity Ace, a cargo ship hauling luxury cars may have been intensified by the batteries in the electric vehicles on board. The Felicity Ace — which is carrying some 4,000 cars — caught fire in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean during February 2022. A port official told Reuters that lithium-ion batteries in the electric cars were "keeping the fire alive."

Felicity Ace was a 650 foot long, roll-on/roll-off cargo ship (Pure Car/Truck Carrier) built by Shin Kurushima Dockyard in 2005, owned and operated by Mitsui O.S.K. Lines of Japan, and registered in Panama. She caught fire in February 2022 south of the Azores, then capsized and sank in early March.

Damn near impossible to put out a lithium battery fire.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by ozsailer

My last comment on this - Hundreds of posts and articles have been written on the danger of lithium batteries over the years regardless of your personal views. Look at the lengths airline go to ensure no lithium batteries are stored in cargo holds of planes. Indeed there are cases of lithium batteries causing fires on planes and also on boats (also quite recently) Installing and updating your battery bank to lithium is a major upgrade. Based on all the information available not only to you but to any insurance company it is my opinion based on our insurance companies here in Oz, this is most definitely something I would personally advise them off if I did such an upgrade. Purely my personnel opinion.



Ozsailer

This is why we have insurance companies running scared. Conflating All Li chemistries together.

You’d think people would know better by now but yet this BS is still trotted out

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Fire aboard cargo ship in Atlantic Ocean may have been intensified by electric-vehicle batteries from luxury cars like Porsches and Bentley
Feb 21

https://www.msn.com/en-us/autos/news...re%20alive.%22

The fire on the Felicity Ace, a cargo ship hauling luxury cars may have been intensified by the batteries in the electric vehicles on board. The Felicity Ace — which is carrying some 4,000 cars — caught fire in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean during February 2022. A port official told Reuters that lithium-ion batteries in the electric cars were "keeping the fire alive."

Felicity Ace was a 650 foot long, roll-on/roll-off cargo ship (Pure Car/Truck Carrier) built by Shin Kurushima Dockyard in 2005, owned and operated by Mitsui O.S.K. Lines of Japan, and registered in Panama. She caught fire in February 2022 south of the Azores, then capsized and sank in early March.

Damn near impossible to put out a lithium battery fire.

Evd don’t use LFP batteries in the main they use higher energy density chemistries

[Ween]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Evd don’t use LFP batteries in the main they use higher energy density chemistries

Right. How do we expect insurance executives to get this when people in a "Lithium Systems" sailboat forum can't even get it?

Airplanes? EVs? Power tools? Cell phones?

omg omg LITHIUM!! omg

[Montanan]

Albeit a bit dated being from 2016 / 17 linked below is a Risk Bulletin published by Allianz Global Corporate & Specialty Insurance Company regarding Lithium-Ion Batteries, including the marine sector.

https://www.agcs.allianz.com/content...-Batteries.pdf

[Montanan]

Link to related recent topic of Amel Yacht Owners, titled LITHIUM BATTERIES - INSURANCE - NIGEL CALDER
https://amelyachtowners.groups.io/g/main/topic/88675274


"In the issue of Professional Boat Builder (PBB, an online magazine that every sailor should read...), Nigel Calder (see attachment) gives his thoughts about Insurance and Lithium batteries.
Hopefully the coming ISO standard will help the insurers understand and accept the "risk" of Lithium Batteries installations, and help the yacht owners to understand if their new Lithium batteries installation is made in a safe and decent way."

Should We Insure Boats with Lithium-ion Battery Banks? by Nigel Calder

https://s3-us-west-1.amazonaws.com/g...SURANCE.pdf%22

A snipet:


Here’s the crux of the matter: In most
lithium-ion battery applications I can think
of, the battery manufacturer reasonably
assumes users will not modify the equipment and battery-operating characteristics. Not so in recreational boats, where most lithium-ion batteries are installed by
boat dealers or in the aftermarket, not by
the boatbuilder, meaning there is little
control over the process. And there’s a
high probability that over the boat’s life,
owners will make additional modifications, including to equipment—alternators, voltage regulators, battery chargers,
inverters, etc.—that can compromise the
safe operation of these batteries.

Ideally, lithium-ion batteries for recreational boats, including the BMS, should
be constructed to accommodate significant potential environmental and owner
abuse. Their installation should also
require compliance with clear manufacturer instructions that prevent operating
outside their SOE. In the current market,
construction and installation requirements are problematic. Many lithium-ion
battery manufacturers who jump into the
boat market have little or no prior marine
experience and often have a limited understanding of the duty cycles, operating
environment, and abuse potential.
This dynamic isn’t new. When we first
put gasoline engines in boats, we burned
some up. When we put propane systems
on boats, we blew some up. Lead-acid batteries can vent explosive gases and also
blow up. We figured out how to make all
these installations more or less safe and
enshrined that knowledge in various standards, notably those promulgated by the
U.S. Coast Guard and the American Boat
& Yacht Council (ABYC).

Now we need clear standards that apply
to the use of lithium-ion batteries in recreational boating. Unfortunately, this is not
easy. Unlike most of our other standards,
which focus almost entirely on the wiring
and plumbing of safe system installations,
lithium-ion batteries rely significantly on
the complex electronics and associated disconnect devices embedded in the BMS. For
those we are dependent on the battery
manufacturer adequately and reliably
addressing the possible failure modes.
Because of the unique role that battery construction and BMS play in ensuring the
safety of lithium-ion batteries, any standard must include prescriptions that go
well beyond installation instructions.



About the Author: Nigel Calder is the author
of Boatowner’s Mechanical and Electrical
Manual and other marine titles. He is a
member of the American Boat & Yacht
Council’s Electrical Project Technical Committee. He recently teamed with OceanPlanet Energy to continue pursuing his passion for improving the efficiency of boat energy systems, and became one of the cofounders of BoatHowTo (www.BoatHowTo
.com), a platform for accurate online marine
electrical education.

[goboatingnow]

I don’t see how the situation will resolve itself unless we end up like Gas ( butane /propane ) solutions. In many countries now you cannot install gas appliances or systems yourself. You must use a certified professional installer and you can’t mod it afterwards. ( you can make some repairs. )

Is this the way lithium will go?

[fxykty]

There are already requirements by the ABYC regarding BMS requirements(TE-13 for those who have accounts). https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/ provides detailed information about marine systems.

In summary ABYC require that the BMS is able to trigger an alarm before it cuts off charging. Not many BMS have this feature, so make sure the one you buy does that. The voltages and/or state of charge for warnings and cut offs (both high and low) should be configurable so that you can set them to your specifications.

[zGerman]

I checked with my European insurance for my European boat and was told the batteries need to be CE or TÜV certified and all is good.

[kiwin]

[QUOTE=So if your policy has some weird or unreasonable clauses in it, shop around. Use a broker and negotiate.[/QUOTE]
If only I had thought of that....

[kiwin]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Yeah,vim pretty sure that's not how it works.
If it did, if you tripled your battery size again you'd blow up just thinking about it.

Solid reasoning. I will be sure to consult you in future on matters of engineering.

[Anders]

Originally Posted by zGerman

I checked with my European insurance for my European boat and was told the batteries need to be CE or TÜV certified and all is good.

Which insurer would that be?

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by zGerman

I checked with my European insurance for my European boat and was told the batteries need to be CE or TÜV certified and all is good.

Given you can buy CE certified cells , I’m not sure the insurer understands the implications. CE would not apply to the whole battery system as a “ set “

One issue for European boats would be that a lithium upgrade could be regarded as a major boat modification and hence the whole boat would require post construction CE certification again

[CharlieJ]

I have been involved with LFP battery installations aboard pleasure boat for about 10 years. Periodically I have posted on CF a query for any documentation about a failure of a LFP system that has caused damage to a recreational boat. I have posted this question two or three times over the years in threads that get thousands of views. There has never been a verifiable response that there was damage or vessel loss caused by LFP batteries.