Lithium and Insurance

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Evd don’t use LFP batteries in the main they use higher energy density chemistries

Tesla will change the type of battery cells it uses in all its standard-range cars (to phosphate)





https://www.cnbc.com/2021/10/20/tesl...ange-cars.html

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

I have been involved with LFP battery installations aboard pleasure boat for about 10 years. Periodically I have posted on CF a query for any documentation about a failure of a LFP system that has caused damage to a recreational boat. I have posted this question two or three times over the years in threads that get thousands of views. There has never been a verifiable response that there was damage or vessel loss caused by LFP batteries.

Depends on what you mean by "verifiable" (they posted it on the internet?).

I saw, with my eyes, a new boat that burned up a LiFePO4 bow thruster battery. Since the manufacture replaced it there would have been no public record and I am certain they don't want to talk about it.

There was very limited damamge to the boat, since it happened during sea trials, the crew was looking at every thing, and caught it very early. Possibly the battery was damaged during installation, but it was too melted to tell. The work looked good. Clearly, any new installation needs to be monitored closely for the first few cycles. We could toss this off as "not verifiable" because we don't know the cause, but that is sort of like cheating, isn't it, because mistakes do happen, to everyone.

[zGerman]

Originally Posted by Anders

Which insurer would that be?

I used Geoffroy de LASSÉE as my agent to obtain insurance. He is very helpful and responsive. You can contact him and give him your requirements.

Geoffroy de LASSÉE | ASSURANCES MARITIMES de LASSÉE
5 rue de la trinquette - BP 50066 - 17003 La Rochelle
www.delassee.com

[Melbourne Park]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Depends on what you mean by "verifiable" (they posted it on the internet?).

I saw, with my eyes, a new boat that burned up a LiFePO4 bow thruster battery. Since the manufacture replaced it there would have been no public record and I am certain they don't want to talk about it.

There was very limited damamge to the boat, since it happened during sea trials, the crew was looking at every thing, and caught it very early. Possibly the battery was damaged during installation, but it was too melted to tell. The work looked good. Clearly, any new installation needs to be monitored closely for the first few cycles. We could toss this off as "not verifiable" because we don't know the cause, but that is sort of like cheating, isn't it, because mistakes do happen, to everyone.

It seems one of the most basic problems with LifPo batteries is that there seems to be no verifiable standard that insurance companies can rely on. Another issue is that for upgrades, much of the infrastructure needs upgrading for them and the ancillaries to be "safe" in all situations.

An example with the batteries, is the price difference between "high end" and the bargains that are very common. Yet all the batteries seem to spec just the same. And people buy the cheap ones, and report they work fine.

The differences can be more than marketing. Some have less protection for each cell; some cells are recycled and more prone to failure; some management systems in the batteries are partial rather than fully covering each cell. And there are further quality issues as well.

[goboatingnow]

A fire in a LFP cell is actually very hard to generate , generally it requires considerable damage to the battery and or faulty installation. A big AGM will start a fire just as nicely etc.

without detail info the “ bow thruster fire “ really tells us nothing nor points to anything in particular

[Melbourne Park]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

A fire in a LFP cell is actually very hard to generate , generally it requires considerable damage to the battery and or faulty installation. A big AGM will start a fire just as nicely etc.

without detail info the “ bow thruster fire “ really tells us nothing nor points to anything in particular

With my caravan maker, they were very cautious about lithium; now its standard. But their concerns with Lithium safety was mostly due to a downside failure - ie not in the battery. The problem being, that a lead acid is not very efficient, so it releases its power slowly. The high efficiency of lithium allows the energy to release very quickly. So a fire inside the van was much more likely due to the high efficiency of lithium. And that was their main concern, not the batteries themselves.

But one has to ask oneself for a boat - will I buy the high end famous brand of Lithium, or pay for half the price, the plain label brand which specs just the same?

[BlueH2Obound]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Depends on what you mean by "verifiable" (they posted it on the internet?).

I saw, with my eyes, a new boat that burned up a LiFePO4 bow thruster battery. Since the manufacture replaced it there would have been no public record and I am certain they don't want to talk about it.

There was very limited damamge to the boat, since it happened during sea trials, the crew was looking at every thing, and caught it very early. Possibly the battery was damaged during installation, but it was too melted to tell. The work looked good. Clearly, any new installation needs to be monitored closely for the first few cycles. We could toss this off as "not verifiable" because we don't know the cause, but that is sort of like cheating, isn't it, because mistakes do happen, to everyone.

Move along folks, nothing verifiable to see here, just some mother's uncle's friends hairdresser who supposedly saw some "damamge" maybe caused somewhere, by possibly something . . . and then goes on to state that there probably isn't any public proof of it ever happening anyway . . . .

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

A fire in a LFP cell is actually very hard to generate , generally it requires considerable damage to the battery and or faulty installation. A big AGM will start a fire just as nicely etc.

without detail info the “bow thruster fire“ really tells us nothing nor points to anything in particular

I did not suggest that it did. Only that the incidence is non-zero.

* The number of incidents is small because the population is perhaps 1000 times smaller than big AGMs.

* The vast majority of incidents of all types are not conveniently reported in a verifiable manner unless someone dies. Even then, generally not.
* For an incident to matter it does not need to be mistake- or wear-and-tear free. We need to consider robustness.
* The cause could have been installation damamge... and that happens, more often with Li batteries, judging from the vigorous defense of it we see, than with LA.


The proof was in front of my face that there was a LiFePO4 battery fire in a factory-fresh boat.



---


Me, I'm just following the thread.

[goboatingnow]

The point is without a detailed report on what actually happened all we know is a LFP battery that “ burned up “ ( or so it seems ) we have no idea what caused the issue or what exactly happened

Hence it’s hard to assign fault at this remove.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

The point is without a detailed report on what actually happened all we know is a LFP battery that “ burned up “ ( or so it seems ) we have no idea what caused the issue or what exactly happened

Hence it’s hard to assign fault at this remove.

Insurance companies would have such reports, via their claims. However these are private - between the insurance company and the contracted. For whatever reasons, it seems several insurance companies are cautious about lithium batteries in boats.

My local Jeanneau agent has also told me forget about upgrading to Lithium. But I'm not sure why ... I presume, because the 2016 build, doesn't conform to Lithium wiring requirements. Also the alternator won't handle both a lithium direct charge as well as the AGM starter battery. And the AC powered shore site battery charger may not be suitable for lithium too.

Lithium appeals to me because replacing AGMs would lighten the boat. But the cost of doing so would probably required re-wiring, different AC charger setup, perhaps a DC-DC charger for the lithiums, and perhaps other things on the motor/alternator side. Chucking in replacement AGMs or carbon lead AGMS requires just replacing the old batteries.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Melbourne Park

Insurance companies would have such reports, via their claims. However these are private - between the insurance company and the contracted. For whatever reasons, it seems several insurance companies are cautious about lithium batteries in boats.

My local Jeanneau agent has also told me forget about upgrading to Lithium. But I'm not sure why ... I presume, because the 2016 build, doesn't conform to Lithium wiring requirements. Also the alternator won't handle both a lithium direct charge as well as the AGM starter battery. And the AC powered shore site battery charger may not be suitable for lithium too.

Lithium appeals to me because replacing AGMs would lighten the boat. But the cost of doing so would probably required re-wiring, different AC charger setup, perhaps a DC-DC charger for the lithiums, and perhaps other things on the motor/alternator side. Chucking in replacement AGMs or carbon lead AGMS requires just replacing the old batteries.

Agreed , a lithium upgrade can under certain circumstances , especially if you have older equipment, mean a complete upgrade to all charging sources. Then you will have as a minimum , HVC and LVC protection disconnects , preferably also a BMS that controls all charge sources directly retaining LVC and HVC facilities purely for last ditch protection

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Melbourne Park

My local Jeanneau agent has also told me forget about upgrading to Lithium. But I'm not sure why ... I presume, because the 2016 build, doesn't conform to Lithium wiring requirements. Also the alternator won't handle both a lithium direct charge as well as the AGM starter battery. And the AC powered shore site battery charger may not be suitable for lithium too.

Lithium appeals to me because replacing AGMs would lighten the boat. But the cost of doing so would probably required re-wiring, different AC charger setup, perhaps a DC-DC charger for the lithiums, and perhaps other things on the motor/alternator side. Chucking in replacement AGMs or carbon lead AGMS requires just replacing the old batteries.

That's a shame, with a DC-DC charger from the engine start battery to a house LFP, many of the problems are eliminated and control over the charging regime enabled. However, there is some studying to be done before taking the leap.

Pete

[clamshack]

This is all very frustrating. My current position is that we will not be using Lithium. Even if our current insurer is fine with it, another may not be.

In the marine insurance market there are not a ton of options. Lithium may limit our ability to change insurers if we are dropped or shopping for a lower premium.

[h20man]

I would think (and therefore that is probably my first error) that a Lithium system install that passed a survey (as required for some boat insurance) would be a lower risk then a 'standard' boat where the owner has no real clue as to what is going on. A lithium install (I would think... that dreaded error again) would entail that the owner is aware of his boat and needs and is more diligent about maintenance then an owner that just delegates with piles of cash to others to 'fix' the boat.


Especially if all the work is properly documented...

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by clamshack

This is all very frustrating. My current position is that we will not be using Lithium. Even if our current insurer is fine with it, another may not be.

In the marine insurance market there are not a ton of options. Lithium may limit our ability to change insurers if we are dropped or shopping for a lower premium.

Well acheaper insurakce that won't pay anyhow without court or safe money on buying 110/230B stuff is the same ie the end. Not poing Li because of insurance is wrong way in my eyes.
Marine industry is not unified and not pushing lithium because that keeps you on the hook to depend on their overprized 12V stuff.
Lithium makes you more independent and use much cheaper 110/230V. Li combined with all eectric galley is much safer then AGM and gas.
Insurance will realize this too.