Lithium and Insurance

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by h20man

I would think (and therefore that is probably my first error) that a Lithium system install that passed a survey (as required for some boat insurance) would be a lower risk then a 'standard' boat where the owner has no real clue as to what is going on. A lithium install (I would think... that dreaded error again) would entail that the owner is aware of his boat and needs and is more diligent about maintenance then an owner that just delegates with piles of cash to others to 'fix' the boat.


Especially if all the work is properly documented...

Unfortunately insurance don't think. They have their checklist and purely decide on risks a desk underwriter or product developer identified aed calculated.
Its the same bs that you face crossing Atlantic from Canaries to Caribbean when insurer excluded coverage for cabo verde and state its not safe but
A) the lower you go the trade winds are more stable and constant
B) shortest distance to Caribbean so less risk.
C) its 600nm from africa, no pirates
....

[Melbourne Park]

The other annoying thing, is that Lithium is cheaper than AGM now. In Australia, for instance, King's 200 A/H Lithium is currently $999. In $US, that's about under $700. And its best to leave it below 90% charge when in the marina - which extends battery life. AGM sulphates if left below full charge.

I'm going to ring my insurer, but I know what they'll say.

I'll probably go for Carbon / Lead batteries instead. Which I presume, the insurer will view as just being AGM.

One thing that I also like about Lithium, is installation is safer. Because they are half the weight. Getting a 150 AH AGM down a companionway stairs is very dangerous. A 260 AH AGM - even more so. And so too in the boat - their lightness is safer during in high winds.
The AGM solution is to have more, smaller batteries. Which means more wiring, and less safety. And an increased likelihood of battery tie downs not working.

And of course, they don't output those amp hours without sacrificing most of their longevity.

In the off road world, the downside of Lithium is as a starting battery, due to engine heat radiating onto the battery in the bonnet. That's not an issue on a boat in most cases, the start batteries are typically in much cooler places.

Darn.

[SaylorMade]

Originally Posted by kiwin

Any claim associated with fire caused by a lithium ion battery,, including consequential damage, shall require the client to pay the first 50% of the claim or the deductible whichever is greater, this clause supersedes clause "5. Deductibles" in the PDS."

Are you guys serious?
This must be written by a summer intern, or they just thought "let's try this".

"Any claim associated with fire caused by a lithium ion battery..."

So associated... is leaving the door open for them to not pay on a very weak basis, and you have many lithium ion batteries on board (cell phones, ipads, laptops, handheld VHF etc. etc, and most of them are far more likely to cause a fire than a bank of LifePo4.

I would not accept that in a million years, and no one should.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by kiwin

The insurer is Pantaenius Australia. Here is the verbiage:
"Please note in consideration to the bank of lithium ion batteries, the following warranty must be applied;

Any claim associated with fire caused by a lithium ion battery, including consequential damage, shall require the client to pay the first 50% of the claim or the deductible whichever is greater, this clause supersedes clause "5. Deductibles" in the PDS."

Originally Posted by SaylorMade

Are you guys serious?
This must be written by a summer intern, or they just thought "let's try this".

"Any claim associated with fire caused by a lithium ion battery..."

So associated... is leaving the door open for them to not pay on a very weak basis, and you have many lithium ion batteries on board (cell phones, ipads, laptops, handheld VHF etc. etc, and most of them are far more likely to cause a fire than a bank of LifePo4.

I would not accept that in a million years, and no one should.

Consequential losses to the insured are specifically excluded under a standard Fire and Special Perils Insurance policy that covers only physical damage to assets.

Specific hazard limitation clauses are also common in insurance policies.

One can pursue negotiations to amend standard policy language and additional coverage riders.

It is quite common to have as a specific exclusion for fire damage policy any and all fires initiated by electrical equipment, e.g. short circuit, overpressure, over current, etc.

Devil is always in the details as to risk coverage and risk underwriting.

[Joli]

I understand the insurance company, they’re afraid of thermal runaway and propagation with lithium chemistries. What are they going to do?

[SaylorMade]

Originally Posted by Joli

I understand the insurance company, they’re afraid of thermal runaway and propagation with lithium chemistries. What are they going to do?

They are not "afraid" - they operate on statistics, but I don't believe that there are any stats that will justify insane clauses like the Pantaneius one, but it seems like customers are wiling to accept to not get paid, if any of their many lithium batteries on board "is associated" with a fire...

If insurance companies are afraid of anything, it is to not make even more billions of dollars every year, and from this thread, it seems they will succeed.

That being said, I've had the same insurance company for 30 years, and never have they presented me with any rubbish of this sort, nor have I ever had any problems whatsoever when they've had to pay up, almost to the contrary I would say. So there are reasonable companies out there, but to see things like the Pantaneus clause makes me mad, but also sad that they get away with it.

[Na Mara]

Its interesting how different insurance coverage is in different jurisdictions. In Sweden you are insured against property damage resulting from an installation so long as said installation is “fackmannamässigt utfört”. Basically, you are insured for DIY work on your, car, boat, home or whatever so long as said work meets the standards of the relevant trade. So your DIY bathroom is insured against Walter damage if your workmanship meets the minimum standards of the plumbing trade in Sweden as laid down in their union regulations AND your can prove that this is so.

That last part is a bit of an issue for boat electrical systems as claims are often for fire damage and sometimes after a total loss.

To ensure that you are insured you need to do the following:

1. Install all parts of the system in exact accordance with their manuals.
2. Ensure that all cabling and fusing is correct, with fusing according to the manual and with cabling that has a max amperage capacity at least 25% over the fusing.
3. Ensure that terminals are correctly crimped.
4. Document everything you do. A video presentation of each installed subsystem where you explain the cabling and fusing choices suffices. Wiring diagrams can also be useful.

Additionally, you can hire an electrician to come and inspect your work after the fact and sign off on it for extra security.

Do all of that and assuming that you have done the installation correctly, you will be insured. It’s then up to each individual to decide whether they can do the installation correctly.

[goboatingnow]

The issue is entirely in the hands of specific insurers , in my view once standards are published the issue will be like butane installs , ie professional install only, no Diy

[alanapar]

Despite the relative safety of LFP vs. other Lithium-Ion chemistries, LFP batteries can still suffer catastrophic failure in cases of severe abuse, especially with gross overcharging. Once a cell builds up pressure and vents, it release combustible gases in the form of vaporized organic carbonates used in the electrolyte. These gases can ignite, and if they burn, the energy release is potentially much greater than the electrical energy stored in the battery.

A problem with many existing designs as that they rely on proper connection and configuration of equipment to prevent overcharging in the event of a failure or mis-configuration of a charging device. For example, in many systems the batteries may require external components such as an external safety disconnect switch, with connections to the BMS system, etc. Mis-connection or misconfiguration of such elements can deprive the batteries of essential protection.

No ordinary marine surveyor will be capable of properly auditing such a setup. Only an electrical installer familiar with the specific equipment involved, who takes the time to check and test all the physical setup and software programming involved, is likely to be able to genuinely check that the installation is proper.

[goboatingnow]

The gas from LFP is not combustible

[PaulCrawhorn]

Statistics?

Just a few incidences is enough

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/08/10715...t-safety-rules

[SaylorMade]

Originally Posted by PaulCrawhorn

Statistics?

Just a few incidences is enough

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/08/10715...t-safety-rules

From your article about a boat fire:
"While investigators said they couldn't determine what caused the fire because the boat burned and sank, they say the blaze started toward the back of the main deck salon — where divers had plugged in phones, flashlights and other items with combustible lithium ion batteries."

So you found a link to an article about a boat that burned, where the cause could not be determined, but might have been from phones and flash lights, using battery chemistry very different from what any sane person would ever use as a battery bank on a boat...

Man - the insurance companies have easy days, if you, my fellow boaters are prepared to assume that they need to deny claims, based on things like this..

I understand from this forum, that insurance of boats is expensive in the US, but you guys makes it easy for them, I have to say.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by alanapar

Despite the relative safety of LFP vs. other Lithium-Ion chemistries, LFP batteries can still suffer catastrophic failure in cases of severe abuse, especially with gross overcharging. Once a cell builds up pressure and vents, it release combustible gases in the form of vaporized organic carbonates used in the electrolyte. These gases can ignite, and if they burn, the energy release is potentially much greater than the electrical energy stored in the battery.

A problem with many existing designs as that they rely on proper connection and configuration of equipment to prevent overcharging in the event of a failure or mis-configuration of a charging device. For example, in many systems the batteries may require external components such as an external safety disconnect switch, with connections to the BMS system, etc. Mis-connection or misconfiguration of such elements can deprive the batteries of essential protection.

No ordinary marine surveyor will be capable of properly auditing such a setup. Only an electrical installer familiar with the specific equipment involved, who takes the time to check and test all the physical setup and software programming involved, is likely to be able to genuinely check that the installation is proper.

Sorry totally wrong.
If by ordinary surveyers you mean the jokes that survey a 50ft bluewater sailing yacht in 4 hours and tell you they checked all, yes.
But any capable and professional surveyor is able to check the wiring diagrams and your install, proper fusing, cable sizes like on any lead install the last 50years before too. There are only 3 differences 1)BMS: a quick look at the setup page shows if configured properly. 2) cutoff works:any capable DIY installer can demonstrate the surveyor it works properly eg electrodacus bms you change from any type to Type 0 and device gets shut off or pull the charge fuse while alternator is charging. 3) install location and mechanical protection: need to be done with any other battery type too, but for Li you have some additional requirements that can be easily checked like cool place/no engine room storage.
No problem with my surveyor and Pantaenius all insured.
Sure if you cannot provide proper wiring diagram to your surveyor upfront so he can prepare, that disqualifies you already any proper install needs one doesn't matter if DIY or professional

Propane installs are far more dangerous then Li
And DIY is no problem here either, just let it check by a certified technician. A good surveyor is capable of that too, just need the pressure check tools.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by PaulCrawhorn

Statistics?

Just a few incidences is enough

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/08/10715...t-safety-rules

Gasing of AGMs many more
Boats literally explode from faulty propane installs manny more

... All insured till today.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by PaulCrawhorn

Statistics?

Just a few incidences is enough

https://www.npr.org/2022/01/08/10715...t-safety-rules

Originally Posted by SaylorMade

From your article about a boat fire:
"While investigators said they couldn't determine what caused the fire because the boat burned and sank, they say the blaze started toward the back of the main deck salon — where divers had plugged in phones, flashlights and other items with combustible lithium ion batteries."

So you found a link to an article about a boat that burned, where the cause could not be determined, but might have been from phones and flash lights, using battery chemistry very different from what any sane person would ever use as a battery bank on a boat...

Man - the insurance companies have easy days, if you, my fellow boaters are prepared to assume that they need to deny claims, based on things like this..

I understand from this forum, that insurance of boats is expensive in the US, but you guys makes it easy for them, I have to say.

Newsflash nowadays they deny claims even when an external and their own suveyor stated identically that the damage reported is in line with the damages found, causes line up too and therefor it is without any doubt an insured incident. Cannot be clearer and all risk cover, means AXA has to brng proof if not.

Happened to me with AXA Germany 6 month ago with an 80kEuro damage and cat not seaworthy due to damage. Well they didn't know with whom they messed... A call to the CEO's private cell and an email to two board members and the claims director called 5min later with a brown tongue apologizing and declare full and "generous" cover of the damage, 3 persons got fired the same day...
If you are a "normal" person without this network you are screwed big time...