Lithium and Insurance

[Montanan]

Reference link to PANTAENIUS ASSURANCES YACHTS RISK ARTICLE.

https://www.pantaenius.com/fr-en/sup...looked-danger/


Titled:

Lithium batteries: OVERLOOKED DANGER

Dated 17.08.2022

Snipet therefrom:

"They are at the heart of many electrical appliances: Lithium-ion batteries are now an invisible part of our daily lives. But it's not just smartphones, tablets and similar devices that receive their energy in this way. More and more toys on board yachts and even entire tenders are relying on lithium-ion batteries. The danger that can emanate from this technology is often underestimated."

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Reference link to PANTAENIUS ASSURANCES YACHTS RISK ARTICLE.



https://www.pantaenius.com/fr-en/sup...looked-danger/





Titled:



Lithium batteries: OVERLOOKED DANGER



Dated 17.08.2022



Snipet therefrom:



"They are at the heart of many electrical appliances: Lithium-ion batteries are now an invisible part of our daily lives. But it's not just smartphones, tablets and similar devices that receive their energy in this way. More and more toys on board yachts and even entire tenders are relying on lithium-ion batteries. The danger that can emanate from this technology is often underestimated."

This doesn’t help understand their thinking about house LFP batteries - the linked article is only about the lithium batteries in consumer toys such as phones, scooters, hydrofoils, etc. stored inside toy garages. Different chemistry and different behaviour.

[Montanan]

On topic blog link:

https://sailingrenegade.com/and-now-...cht-insurance/

AND NOW A WORD ABOUT YACHT INSURANCE
written by Admin November 21, 2021

Snipet:

Carriers look at several things before endorsing coverage:

Cruising plans (geographic area and month in each area)

Previous claims history

Crew experience

Recent boat survey with no open exceptions (very important)

Mast material – We have a carbon fiber mast. True story – we have a friend with a Farr 30 that damaged his carbon fiber mast during overland transport. The insurance company totaled the boat rather than pay a claim to replace the mast.

Standing rigging age

House battery type – The go to carrier for US flagged world cruisers is Markel. They have a policy called the Jackline program that is a perfect fit for us. The problem is they do not accept boats with lithium house batteries, no doubt because some do it yourself swap outs have gone bad. We are hearing they may soon accept Lithium Iron Phosphate installations completed by American Boat & Yacht Council (ABYC) certified technicians.

Layup time (time in a yard)

This year our current carrier decided to leave the market and not endorse Caribbean sailing for existing policies. However, the Bahamas are an allowed sailing area until policy expiration in April 2022. I shopped other US carriers for full Caribbean coverage and saw close to an 80% premium increase. These US policies also had minimum crew requirements, high deductibles, maximum distance offshore, and other undesirable policy terms. I then started researching UK based insurance and found great coverage with very reasonable premiums. You can get UK insurance for a US flagged vessel when it is out of the US. The problem is you are not covered by the US legal system if you ever have a claim and it is denied, which is a concern.

So here is our plan:

See how the carriers change their terms and premiums in the new calendar year since claims were most likely lighter than forecast
Wait out Markel insurance on their decision to insure yachts with ABYC installed lithium batteries.
If the two above do not materialize, revisit UK based policies



Or just don't use lithium batteries.

[Montanan]

Reference link:

https://marineindustrynews.co.uk/ins...ium-ion-boats/

Insurance refusals on lithium-ion boats
Tuesday, June 7th, 2022

Snipets:

Insurance company pushback
With the push to electrify the marine industry, battery makers citing lithium-ion as the future, and the retrofitting of electric engines, the danger which lithium-ion batteries could pose is causing some insurance companies to pushback.

Internet comment boards across the marine industry carry stories of individuals being refused cover from high street names, and being asked to agree to clauses accepting 50 per cent of any loss due to misbehaviour of lithium-ion batteries. Other forum members have said that if an owners’ system was not upgraded and installed by an ABYC certified electrician, claims may be denied entirely.

“And this”, says Mike Wimbridge, MD Pantaenius UK, is a huge challenge for leisure marine where, “retrofitting is coming into a sector filled with huge numbers of people who like to do things themselves.”

“Some insurers will not accept a risk with lithium batteries and some are taking a pragmatic view,” says Malcolm Stewart, branch manager for A Plan. “The best thing to do is speak to your broker and let them know what you are doing.”

. . .

Check insurance policies
One internet forum member rhetorically asks why some insurance companies are punishing lithium-ion usage, and says the answer is simple… insurance companies’ experience in boat failures has shown lithium-ion is causing insurance claims.

However, as Stewart says: “There is a lack of reliable information on lithium batteries on boats.”

Wimbridge agrees: “There’s not much data out there, but we know retrofitting electric batteries is difficult. There are lots of conversations around lithium. The assumption is that it’s the same for boating as to power – people share a battery between power tools. But owners must talk to their insurance company, as it’s not that simple. Where the insurance market is still unstable (storms in 2017, covid, Brexit, and Ukraine) their acceptance criteria might be easier to say ‘no’ to, than go through the hassle.

“And even if the insurance company says ‘yes’, it needs to be done professionally and signed off. Many insurer’s policies contain clauses that state that cover can be voided if clients retrofit a lithium engine without their knowledge/consent.

“You can never tell your insurers enough,” Wimbridge says. “If you’re thinking ‘should I, shouldn’t I’ mention this, the answer is always ‘yes’. You’re literally playing with fire.”

Neither of the lithium-ion battery manufacturers approached for comment responded.

[Montanan]

UK Maritime & Coastguard Agency
Marine Guidance Note - MGN 550 [M&F]

Electrical Installations - Guidance for Safe Design,
Installation and Operation of Lithium-ion Batteries

Notice to all Shipowners, Ship Operators, Masters and Officers of Ships, Ship
Designers and Shipbuilders of Vessels fitted with or intended to be fitted with Lithium-ion Batteries

This notice should be read alongside the machinery and electrical provisions within UK ship construction regulations inclusive of UK codes of practice and statutory instruments.

Link:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...allatio....pdf

Note: "The MCA’s catchily titled: Electrical Installations – Guidance for Safe Design, Installation and Operation of Lithium-ion Batteries, makes for sobering reading.

And while this is addressed to all shipowners, ship operators, masters and officers of ships, ship designers and shipbuilders it’s worth reading by any owner who’s considering a retrofit.

As well as setting out in detail the precautions that need to be taken around lithium-ion batteries, it says that although a battery system will contain many cascading levels of protective devices, the vessel should not employ operational procedures that rely on these protective devices for a safe condition."

[CaptainRivet]

how many gas bottle leaked and exploded?
many
how many AGMs ran dry, thermal runaway with poisoned gas and caught fire?
many, I myself tossed AGMs overboard that had thermal runaway

insurances today wanna have premiums but not paying anything so everything that has a bit of a risk is excluded or dealt with that it can be diverted to a third party...
in case of lithium the installer and that's also the reason the lithium need to be bought from the same installer...

Li-ion yes that is a high risk lithium chemistry which shouldn't be used on boats and Markel is right to exclude them.

LifePo4 is a safe chemistry for boats, safer then any AGM.

[Montanan]

If you think the insurance policy has limiting clauses well one should read the limited warranty of a major lithium ion battery manufacturer.

If the manufacturer is disavowing the major liabilities and imposing strict limits to their product, one can well imagine that a risk underwriter will shy away, given the OEM is not providing backing.

Exemplary language from Trojan:


https://www.trojanbattery.com/wp-con...nty_091621.pdf


Snipet:

WITHOUT THE INVOLVEMENT OF TROJAN IN SYSTEM DESIGN AND TROJAN’S EXPRESS WRITTEN AUTHORIZATION,
BATTERIES ARE NOT INTENDED FOR USE AS A PRIMARY OR BACKUP POWER SOURCE FOR LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS OR
OTHER MEDICAL EQUIPMENT, OR ANY USE WHERE PRODUCT FAILURE COULD LEAD TO INJURY TO PERSONS OR LOSS OF LIFE OR CATASTROPHIC PROPERTY DAMAGE. USE IN THIS MANNER IS AT PURCHASER’S OR END USER’S OWN RISK. TO
THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, TROJAN DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY ARISING OUT OF ANY SUCH USE. FURTHER,
TROJAN RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REFUSE TO SERVICE ANY BATTERY USED FOR THESE PURPOSES AND DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY ARISING OUT OF TROJAN’S REFUSAL TO SERVICE.

This warranty does not cover defects that are caused by normal wear and tear, inadequate maintenance, insufficient ventilation,
transportation, storage or faulty repair, misuse, neglect, accident or abuse, modification to the Battery, failure to observe operating
instructions and parameters or improper installation. This warranty does not cover defects caused by external influences while in
the User’s possession, including unusual physical or electrical stress such as power surges, uncontrolled voltages and currents,
system harmonics, lightning, flood, fire, exposure to excessive hot or cold temperatures, or accidents.

This warranty does not cover any damage that may occur as a result of improper connection, incorporation, charging (undercharging, overcharging,
over-discharging), or installation.

For further clarity, this warranty is also void if the Battery:

1. operates (charge or discharge) below or above its authorized temperature range (as measured and logged by the Battery BMS),
2. operates at an average temperature exceeding 80°F (27°C) over the life of the Battery (as measured and logged by the Battery BMS),
3. is not maintained in accordance with the parameters as set forth in the English language version of the User’s Guide,
4. is charged with a battery charger, charging algorithm or unregulated charge source that does not comply with the Trojan’s recommendation
as set forth in the English language version of the User’s Guide,
5. is subjected to excess vibration,
6. Battery BMS is destroyed or altered including CAN bus communication ports,
7. manufacturing date codes, safety certification numbers or serial and tracking numbers are destroyed or altered,
8. is disassembled, altered, or repaired by someone other than an authorized Trojan’s agent,
9. is not installed with adequate balance of system components,
10. is directly connected to DC motors without proper safety protection, motor controllers, and external motor voltage clamping systems, as recommended below,
11. is not properly protected from inrush currents, as recommended below, or
12. is installed with other makes and/or models,
13. improper connection or usage of the CAN bus interface on the Battery as set forth in the English language version of the User Guide.

EXCLUSION FOR FAILURE TO PROVIDE DATA ACCESS
In order to provide this Limited Warranty, Trojan may require user to update and upgrade the Battery’s Firmware and Software.
Any failure to install system updates or upgrades when provided or to provide data logged information upon request will void this Limited Warranty.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by Montanan

If you think the insurance policy has limiting clauses well one should read the limited warranty of a major lithium ion battery manufacturer.

If the manufacturer is disavowing the major liabilities and imposing strict limits to their product, one can well imagine that a risk underwriter will shy away, given the OEM is not providing backing.

Exemplary language from Trojan:


https://www.trojanbattery.com/wp-con...nty_091621.pdf


Snipet:

WITHOUT THE INVOLVEMENT OF TROJAN IN SYSTEM DESIGN AND TROJAN’S EXPRESS WRITTEN AUTHORIZATION,
BATTERIES ARE NOT INTENDED FOR USE AS A PRIMARY OR BACKUP POWER SOURCE FOR LIFE SUPPORT SYSTEMS OR
OTHER MEDICAL EQUIPMENT, OR ANY USE WHERE PRODUCT FAILURE COULD LEAD TO INJURY TO PERSONS OR LOSS OF LIFE OR CATASTROPHIC PROPERTY DAMAGE. USE IN THIS MANNER IS AT PURCHASER’S OR END USER’S OWN RISK. TO
THE EXTENT PERMITTED BY LAW, TROJAN DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY ARISING OUT OF ANY SUCH USE. FURTHER,
TROJAN RESERVES THE RIGHT TO REFUSE TO SERVICE ANY BATTERY USED FOR THESE PURPOSES AND DISCLAIMS ANY AND ALL LIABILITY ARISING OUT OF TROJAN’S REFUSAL TO SERVICE.

This warranty does not cover defects that are caused by normal wear and tear, inadequate maintenance, insufficient ventilation,
transportation, storage or faulty repair, misuse, neglect, accident or abuse, modification to the Battery, failure to observe operating
instructions and parameters or improper installation. This warranty does not cover defects caused by external influences while in
the User’s possession, including unusual physical or electrical stress such as power surges, uncontrolled voltages and currents,
system harmonics, lightning, flood, fire, exposure to excessive hot or cold temperatures, or accidents.

This warranty does not cover any damage that may occur as a result of improper connection, incorporation, charging (undercharging, overcharging,
over-discharging), or installation.

For further clarity, this warranty is also void if the Battery:

1. operates (charge or discharge) below or above its authorized temperature range (as measured and logged by the Battery BMS),
2. operates at an average temperature exceeding 80°F (27°C) over the life of the Battery (as measured and logged by the Battery BMS),
3. is not maintained in accordance with the parameters as set forth in the English language version of the User’s Guide,
4. is charged with a battery charger, charging algorithm or unregulated charge source that does not comply with the Trojan’s recommendation
as set forth in the English language version of the User’s Guide,
5. is subjected to excess vibration,
6. Battery BMS is destroyed or altered including CAN bus communication ports,
7. manufacturing date codes, safety certification numbers or serial and tracking numbers are destroyed or altered,
8. is disassembled, altered, or repaired by someone other than an authorized Trojan’s agent,
9. is not installed with adequate balance of system components,
10. is directly connected to DC motors without proper safety protection, motor controllers, and external motor voltage clamping systems, as recommended below,
11. is not properly protected from inrush currents, as recommended below, or
12. is installed with other makes and/or models,
13. improper connection or usage of the CAN bus interface on the Battery as set forth in the English language version of the User Guide.

EXCLUSION FOR FAILURE TO PROVIDE DATA ACCESS
In order to provide this Limited Warranty, Trojan may require user to update and upgrade the Battery’s Firmware and Software.
Any failure to install system updates or upgrades when provided or to provide data logged information upon request will void this Limited Warranty.

or in other words just forget Trojan....All excluded that means forget warranty.
better to safe a huge amount of money, build a battery from raw cells with a proper BMS yourself and carry the warranty yourself.

[Indolent58]

Originally Posted by Montanan

UK Maritime & Coastguard Agency
Marine Guidance Note - MGN 550 [M&F]

Electrical Installations - Guidance for Safe Design,
Installation and Operation of Lithium-ion Batteries

Notice to all Shipowners, Ship Operators, Masters and Officers of Ships, Ship
Designers and Shipbuilders of Vessels fitted with or intended to be fitted with Lithium-ion Batteries

This notice should be read alongside the machinery and electrical provisions within UK ship construction regulations inclusive of UK codes of practice and statutory instruments.

Link:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...allatio....pdf

Note: "The MCA’s catchily titled: Electrical Installations – Guidance for Safe Design, Installation and Operation of Lithium-ion Batteries, makes for sobering reading.

And while this is addressed to all shipowners, ship operators, masters and officers of ships, ship designers and shipbuilders it’s worth reading by any owner who’s considering a retrofit.

As well as setting out in detail the precautions that need to be taken around lithium-ion batteries, it says that although a battery system will contain many cascading levels of protective devices, the vessel should not employ operational procedures that rely on these protective devices for a safe condition."

This was released in 2016 and makes no distinction between the different Lithium chemistries. Not a particularly useful resource for those moving to LFP house banks.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by fxykty

This doesn’t help understand their thinking about house LFP batteries - the linked article is only about the lithium batteries in consumer toys such as phones, scooters, hydrofoils, etc. stored inside toy garages. Different chemistry and different behaviour.

Battery Safety
Although the risk of any lithium battery catching on fire is rare, LFP batteries have a much higher threshold for heat, which is what causes thermal runaway, or battery fires.

For LFP batteries, thermal runaway temperature is at 270 degrees C, as compared to 210 C for NMC and 150 C for NCA. While a battery's thermal management should protect from any battery getting this hot, LFP batteries do add an additional layer of protection.



Reference link: https://www.grepow.com/blog/lifepo4-...-consequences/

Causes and Consequences of Explosion of LiFePO4 Battery
Posted on October 29, 2019


"In general, lithium iron phosphate batteries do not explode or ignite. LiFePO4 batteries are safer in normal use, but they are not absolute and can be dangerous in some extreme cases. It is related to the company’s decisions of material selection, ratio, process and later uses.

Although the LiFePO4 material is thermodynamical, its thermal stability and structural stability are among the highest of all current cathode materials and have been verified in actual safety performance tests, but the possibility of short-circuiting from materials and batteries is inherent. And by chance, it may be the least safe.

First, from the preparation of the material, the solid phase sintering reaction of LiFePO4 is a complex heterogeneous reaction with solid-phase phosphate, iron oxide and lithium salt, a carbon precursor and a reducing gas phase. In order to ensure that the iron element in the LiFePO4 is positive divalent, the sintering reaction must be carried out in a reducing atmosphere, and the strong reducing atmosphere in the process of reducing the ferric ion to the positive divalent iron ion, there will be a positive divalent The possibility of further reduction of iron ions into trace elemental iron.

Elemental iron can cause the micro-short circuit of the battery, which is the most taboo substance in the battery. This is one of the main reasons why Japan does not apply LiFePO4e to the powerful lithium-ion battery. In addition, a significant feature of the solid phase reaction is the slowness and incompleteness of the reaction, which makes the possibility of trace Fe2O3 in LiFePO4. The Argonne laboratory in the United States attributed the defect of poor high-temperature cycle of LiFePO4 to Fe2O3. Dissolution during charge and discharge cycles and precipitation of elemental iron on the negative electrode. In addition, in order to improve the performance of LiFePO4, it is necessary to nanoparticle its particles. A significant feature of nanomaterials is their low structural and thermal stability and high chemical activity, which also increases the probability of iron dissolution in LFP to some extent, especially under high-temperature cycling and storage conditions. The experimental results also show that the presence of iron is tested by chemical analysis or energy spectrum analysis on the negative electrode.

From the aspect of preparation of lithium iron phosphate battery, since the LiFePO4 nano-sized particles are small, the specific surface area is high, and the high specific surface area activated carbon has a strong gas such as moisture in the air due to the carbon coating process. Adsorption, resulting in poor electrode processing performance, the adhesion of the binder to its nanoparticles is poor. The nanoparticles are easily detached from the electrode during the battery preparation process or during the charge and discharge cycle and storage of the battery, causing a micro short circuit inside the battery."

[Melbourne Park]

Originally Posted by Montanan

UK Maritime & Coastguard Agency
Marine Guidance Note - MGN 550 [M&F]

Electrical Installations - Guidance for Safe Design,
Installation and Operation of Lithium-ion Batteries

Notice to all Shipowners, Ship Operators, Masters and Officers of Ships, Ship
Designers and Shipbuilders of Vessels fitted with or intended to be fitted with Lithium-ion Batteries

This notice should be read alongside the machinery and electrical provisions within UK ship construction regulations inclusive of UK codes of practice and statutory instruments.

Link:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...allatio....pdf

Note: "The MCA’s catchily titled: Electrical Installations – Guidance for Safe Design, Installation and Operation of Lithium-ion Batteries, makes for sobering reading.

And while this is addressed to all shipowners, ship operators, masters and officers of ships, ship designers and shipbuilders it’s worth reading by any owner who’s considering a retrofit.
...

It seems based upon large installations that do a lot of work ie electrically powered propulsion.

There is quite a lot of emphasis on BMS too - which is standard (but varies a lot in quality) in Lithium batteries that people like us would consider.

The report also wants fireproof storage compartments, training for a fire, and fire suppression systems, two battery trained people on board, a wet station for eye damage, etc etc.

Interestingly too, the report describes different battery families:
Lead Acid
Nickel Cadmium
Nickel Metal Hydride
Nickel Zinc
Silver Oxide
Lithium-ion

It does not differentiate between Lithium-ion technologies. There are several types of lithium batteries:
lithium manganese oxide (LiMn2O4)
lithium iron phosphate (LiFeP04)
lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (LiNiMnCoO2)
lithium nickel cobalt aluminum oxide (LiNiCoAlO2)
lithium titanate (Li4Ti5O12)

While lead acid batteries have several different types, they have much the same chemistry. This is not the case with "Lithium" batteries, which have very different characteristics.

The report says that all lithium batteries:
"Cannot withstand overcharge, degrade when over-charged, safety concerns"\

Further it says in bolded text:
"A key hazard of lithium ion technology is the way a minor lithium-ion cell defect can quickly cascade into a full battery fire incident". Hazards: 5.1.2 last sentence.

Hence Lithium Iron Phosphate is classified under the same umbrella as are all the volatile and able to have high temperature runaways lithium batteries.

It's surprising that there is no mention of Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries, and no attempt to differentiate between different types of Lithium technologies.

Amusingly, it mentions that cell balancing is necessary with Lithium batteries, but its more difficult to do than with a wet cell battery, where one can alter the cell balance by varying the fluid top up ... wow.

It's published in 2016 too - which is 8 years ago. Technology has changed a lot since then, as has production volumes and safety systems, and auxiliary equipment to handle such batteries.

I am annoyed too that it is so poorly written, with repetitions right throughout the document.

Any insurer reading it would be frightened about Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries ... just like my caravan manufacturer was frightened about such Lithium batteries back in 2014, and that company refused to fit Lithium until a few years later. Now, they are standard in all of that company's rugged off road trailers and caravans.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Montanan

UK Maritime & Coastguard Agency
Marine Guidance Note - MGN 550 [M&F]

Electrical Installations - Guidance for Safe Design,
Installation and Operation of Lithium-ion Batteries

Notice to all Shipowners, Ship Operators, Masters and Officers of Ships, Ship
Designers and Shipbuilders of Vessels fitted with or intended to be fitted with Lithium-ion Batteries

This notice should be read alongside the machinery and electrical provisions within UK ship construction regulations inclusive of UK codes of practice and statutory instruments.

Link:
https://assets.publishing.service.go...allatio....pdf

Note: "The MCA’s catchily titled: Electrical Installations – Guidance for Safe Design, Installation and Operation of Lithium-ion Batteries, makes for sobering reading.

And while this is addressed to all shipowners, ship operators, masters and officers of ships, ship designers and shipbuilders it’s worth reading by any owner who’s considering a retrofit.

As well as setting out in detail the precautions that need to be taken around lithium-ion batteries, it says that although a battery system will contain many cascading levels of protective devices, the vessel should not employ operational procedures that rely on these protective devices for a safe condition."

Yes more official rubbish not separating out LFP tech

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by Indolent58

This was released in 2016 and makes no distinction between the different Lithium chemistries. Not a particularly useful resource for those moving to LFP house banks.

Actually, it does. It notes that there are many variants of lithium-ion cells, and it specifically identifies LFP. It looks like a perfectly good standard/guideline for builders, and calls for taking the chemistry into consideration in many different aspects of the installation design.

[BuoyCall]

Originally Posted by Montanan

Reference link to PANTAENIUS ASSURANCES YACHTS RISK ARTICLE.

https://www.pantaenius.com/fr-en/sup...looked-danger/


Titled:

Lithium batteries: OVERLOOKED DANGER

Dated 17.08.2022

Snipet therefrom:

"They are at the heart of many electrical appliances: Lithium-ion batteries are now an invisible part of our daily lives. But it's not just smartphones, tablets and similar devices that receive their energy in this way. More and more toys on board yachts and even entire tenders are relying on lithium-ion batteries. The danger that can emanate from this technology is often underestimated."

Interesting... been doing yacht insurance last couple years and have not heard of this issue. Going to contact our carriers and inquire about it. Id rather know upfront if they have an issue with those batteries. Everyday is a school day!!!! Cheers

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by BuoyCall

Interesting... been doing yacht insurance last couple years and have not heard of this issue. Going to contact our carriers and inquire about it. Id rather know upfront if they have an issue with those batteries. Everyday is a school day!!!! Cheers

did you get a read my statement and of others? call your surveyor,not your insurance company as they have no glue BUT as soon as they think you carry a risk you have to provide proof on your cost that this isn't the case. lot of hassle and costs for a question ....