Lithium and Insurance

[karkauai]

Hi all,
I am considering switching to lithium, and recently heard that insurance companies are leery about insuring boats with LiFePO4 (or any other Li batteries). I asked my agent (IMIS, policy is Jackline, a Market product), and they replied that the underwriter has a list of requirements that must be met for your policy to be accepted. They require that a certified marine electrician do the install, a BMS manufactured by a US company, and only for "lower value" boats (which leaves my boat uninsurable).

I am looking for other options and will report what I find.

Has anyone else run into this? Did you find an insurer willing to cover boats with LiFePO4 batteries?

Thanks for any input.
Kent

[T1 Terry]

This is an interesting topic all on its own. The same question has come up over here in Aust with RV conversions to lithium.
It seems that those doing DIY drop in lithium conversions could be leaving themselves open to a claim denial in the case of a battery/electrical fire.
In our case, we are lithium system installers and therefore our insurance covers our systems .... unless someone other than us modify the system, then they are on their own to fight it out as far as just who is responsible.
Yet to find a drop in battery manufacturer or reseller who will carry the insurance can if their battery causes damage to any equipment, including the vehicle or vessel it has been installed in .... all their limitations seem to be about the actual battery purchase price .....

T1 Terry

[karkauai]

Hi Terry,
What do you mean by " all their limitations seem to be about the actual battery purchase price ....."?

They insist on more expensive batteries? If so, does higher price imply that the battery manufacturer has insurance?

I am NOT an electrician, and wouldn't consider a DIY install. So far I haven't been too impressed with the few electricians I've asked about Li. My boat is an Amel, with a *floating" ground, bonding system not attached to battery negative except when glow plugs, starting, or stopping either the Yanmar, or Onan generator. Most ABYC electricians don't seem to understand that, so asking about Li is a moot point.

As an installer, can you give us a list of the most important things to insist on? From batteries to chargers to controllers to BMSs?
Thanks
Kent

[rwidman]

If insurance companies won't insure a boat with lithium batteries, I would take that as a good reason not to install lithium batteries in my boat. These companies know the risks, that is their business.

It makes me wonder tough, is the lithium battery for my electric dinghy motor a risk? Do I need to keep it outside or in a fireproof enclosure?

[karkauai]

Hi Rwidman,
I had a Torqueedo for a season and gave it up. I used the boat's solar to charge the batteries, checking battery temp every hour or so. They never even got warm.
Kent

[kenbo]

The Markel issue seems to be not lithium iron batteries per se but rather the installation by DYIs.

[karkauai]

That's probably true. I hope Over the last three years, I've replaced chargers 24v house bank alternator and external controller, and added solar with controllers, all of which are Li compatible.
But Markel won't cover LiFePO4 systems on boats that are of "higher value" even if professionally installed...that leaves me out with my 53ft 1999 Amel ketch.

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by karkauai

Hi Terry,
What do you mean by " all their limitations seem to be about the actual battery purchase price ....."?

They insist on more expensive batteries? If so, does higher price imply that the battery manufacturer has insurance?

I am NOT an electrician, and wouldn't consider a DIY install. So far I haven't been too impressed with the few electricians I've asked about Li. My boat is an Amel, with a *floating" ground, bonding system not attached to battery negative except when glow plugs, starting, or stopping either the Yanmar, or Onan generator. Most ABYC electricians don't seem to understand that, so asking about Li is a moot point.

As an installer, can you give us a list of the most important things to insist on? From batteries to chargers to controllers to BMSs?
Thanks
Kent

The supplier of the drop in battery will not pay for any subsequent damage one of their batteries might cause.
Basically, the installer of the lithium system should cover the insurance if anything should go wrong causing damage ... it's called product liability

T1 Terry

[Simi 60]

There is a difference between lithium , lithium ion and lifepo4

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=aQs7L5LmEss

[karkauai]

I understand liability, Terry. I don't understand your statement that " all their limitations seem to be about the actual battery purchase price ....."?

The limitations they cited were
1) Only boats of "lesser value", and said my boat doesn't qualify. Another boat owner told me that Markel told him they were only considering boats worth $150,000 or less
2)USA battery manufacturer
3)USA ABYC certified installer

They won't even consider DIY installs, so what did you mean by " all their limitations seem to be about the actual battery purchase price ....."?
Thanks
Kent

[T1 Terry]

Originally Posted by karkauai

I understand liability, Terry. I don't understand your statement that " all their limitations seem to be about the actual battery purchase price ....."?

The limitations they cited were
1) Only boats of "lesser value", and said my boat doesn't qualify. Another boat owner told me that Markel told him they were only considering boats worth $150,000 or less
2)USA battery manufacturer
3)USA ABYC certified installer

They won't even consider DIY installs, so what did you mean by " all their limitations seem to be about the actual battery purchase price ....."?
Thanks
Kent

That comment was in reference to the DIY builder who might think any costs resulting from a faulty battery would be met by the battery supplier.
When a DIY installer uses drop in batteries, the battery supplier will only cover the cost of the battery, not subsequent damage or costs that might have been involved if their battery failed.
As to whether the insurance policy for the vessel in the event of a fire would be covered by the insurer if they could link the fire back to any DIY electrical work ...... you don't need me to paint the picture of how that would go :lol:

T1 Terry

[karkauai]

Gotcha. Thanks for clarification.

[Melbourne Park]

Originally Posted by karkauai

Gotcha. Thanks for clarification.

Hi Karkauai.

The previous owner of my 2016 boat is picking up a new Emil 50 right now, he's going to sail it back to Oz.

He said to me about Lithium:

3rd party installations of lithium have resulted in a number of fires with boat wiring not up to scratch which is why insurance companies are giving them a wide berth. Even on my new boat with lithium factory installed there is an insurance excess of 50% of the value of the boat should the cause of the incident be related to lithium.

The new boat an AMEL 50, has lithium, a genset and 1.5kw of solar. I though about the hydro generator but because the boat has a swim platform it would have to be permanently in the water. Not wanting the constant drag on performance I left it out. Yes all sails are furling and electric – bliss (if it doesn’t break!).

So even in a 2 million Aussie dollar boat, the owner has to pay 50% more insurance excess on damage to the boat due to lithium consequences, and that is obviously a factory install.

I asked the owner because my boat is designed to be lightweight and hence lithium would suit it better. Lithium also affords fast charging, if one has the capacity to charge quickly and safely, which gets complex if you want the alternator to directly charge the lithium batteries. Hence typically external regulators, continued charging of the lead acid starter battery, a BMS, etc. But it seems the safest way to charge is with a DC-DC, and those have charging bottlenecks that can effect the advantages of charging lithium, which can be charged quickly if the alternator can be prevented from overheating. Also with more charge going through, the wiring has to be heavier. Plus if charging stops before the alternator stops, the alternator burns out due to no where for its charge to go. So alternators also need to charge a lead acid at the same time as a fail safe for a BMS stopping the charge while the alternator still generates. Cooling of the alternator is also an issue, because if they run at high capacity, they get very hot and the boat is unlikely to have extra cooling capacity for the alternator to be running at several times its expected output. The fast charging capability of lithium also means it is riskier as it can dissipate its energy much quicker, which is another danger. And who knows - that may compromise the earthing capacity of a boat. I don't understand the earth side of boats properly, and all boats are different as well in that regard, so I am told, and it seems, the people telling me don't understand either!

Hence the complexity of lithium.

I am exploring ensuring my system is "balanced" - and my main usage will be auto pilot, followed by the fridge.

I reckon for me a water powered generator and less batteries would do the job better ... the problem with lots of batteries is that once run down, you are even worse off than with less batteries! One has to achieve some balance it seems to me!

I am also checking out lead acid "carbon" batteries, which insurance companies don't specify in their tick check boxes. They are more efficient and are supposed to last longer (less sulphation due to carbon on one of the poles). Also less weight. But less known ...

let us know what you did!

MP

[kiwin]

I just insured a 1996 sundeer 60 with 1200 Ah of LFP batteries. It's a good install with cell level top balancing BMS and a controller for each of the two 12v packs. In addition the wiring has been upgraded to cope with the extra current and new alternators with external Balmar regulators fitted.
I have insured with Pantaenius who have also insisted that they will only cover 50% of the loss from a lithium battery fire.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by kiwin

I just insured a 1996 sundeer 60 with 1200 Ah of LFP batteries. It's a good install with cell level top balancing BMS and a controller for each of the two 12v packs. In addition the wiring has been upgraded to cope with the extra current and new alternators with external Balmar regulators fitted.
I have insured with Pantaenius who have also insisted that they will only cover 50% of the loss from a lithium battery fire.

Interesting regarding the 50% increase. We have nothing like that in our policy from Velos, which reinsures with Lloyds. All it says is: “Lithium Batteries
It is a condition of this insurance that the use and maintenance of lithium batteries is carried out in strict accordance with the manufacturers recommendations and full records are to be kept”