Lithium Batteries advice

[Basil]

Hi
I am about to replace my old lead acid batteries with lithium batteries which have a configuration An look like a standard 12 volt battery, these are a compact unit which is a “plug An play” installation,

the other type which I looked at was the 4 seperate 3.2 volt lithium cells (making up 12v )which then have to be fitted together with a BMS system and other wiring an electronic devices.
A local agent has tried to say that the compact batteries are no way as good as the individual seperate cells, (which he installs)

Is this his way of trying to generating business by ensuring he gets the job of installation or does he have a valid point about these compact lithium batteries which I can fit my self . By the way the compact complete units are sealed An include a built in BMS unit, an just need to be hooked up like a standard battery.
Regards

[Wild Goose]

I don’t see how he can say an indervidual cell/bms setup is better than a drop in lifepo battery. It’s all is about component quality in either setup surely . Interesting thought I have thought a number of times, what happens with warranty in a situation with cells wired to a bms. Will the installer provide warranty for the whole setup? If the bms fails and destroys the cells, will the bms manufacturer replace the cells? I bought sealed plug in and play batteries from GenZ after talking with their tech department and some of their industrial customers who intensively use them and have actually tried to break them. My logic was it cost more but if there was a problem it’s their responsibility and they can’t play the blame game blaming installers/dodgy cells/faulty bms. Plus a proven platform engineered by experts and safe, just plug in and go. Nothing for me to screw up

[markcouz]

You get both good and bad drop in replacements. You can probably build yourself a better assembled pack if you are willing to go to the effort and do the research- or pay someone to do it for you.

Look up Will Prowse on YouTube for an extensive insight into the various options - he also reviews quite a few drop in cells and a lot of self builds. You will get a good background into the subject.

[Steve_C]

Originally Posted by Wild Goose

I don’t see how he can say an indervidual cell/bms setup is better than a drop in lifepo battery. It’s all is about component quality in either setup surely . Interesting thought I have thought a number of times, what happens with warranty in a situation with cells wired to a bms. Will the installer provide warranty for the whole setup? If the bms fails and destroys the cells, will the bms manufacturer replace the cells? I bought sealed plug in and play batteries from GenZ after talking with their tech department and some of their industrial customers who intensively use them and have actually tried to break them. My logic was it cost more but if there was a problem it’s their responsibility and they can’t play the blame game blaming installers/dodgy cells/faulty bms. Plus a proven platform engineered by experts and safe, just plug in and go. Nothing for me to screw up

There is nothing wrong with a well designed drop-in battery from a reputable company like BattleBorn, however there are some VERY serious issues that need to be addressed. Charging sources from traditional setups are not properly designed for Lithium and in most cases do not have the ability to be set for these types of batteries.

For instance, if you intend to use this wired to your alternator, the Lithium can accept a charge as fast as your alternator can provide it, if the voltage reaches a certain point the BMS will disconnect the battery to protect it, and you can damage your alternator. This is just one of many possibilities, and the entire system needs to be looked at as a whole. Temperature limitations are also very different for Lithium compared to you traditional batteries.

The "Drop-In" solutions are very expensive compared to what you can build with individual cells. For the expense, I would not go that route unless you have a solid working knowledge of Lithium and its implications, and if you DO have that knowledge then building your own bank and configuring it is not that big of a challenge.

The Will Prowse channel that markcouz suggested is a great start to getting a high level understanding. If you want more specific advise about your situation, you need to be more specific about EXACTLY how you plan to use it, what you current system consists of etc..

A system built from individual cells, in my opinion can be FAR better than a drop in solution, but "Better" is a relative term and this is a very complex type of solution whether its drop in or built. Take the time and effort to learn more before spending a lot on either. Either solution will have major warranty risks especially if you don't adapt the system to the Bank.

Best of luck!

[Wild Goose]

Originally Posted by Steve_C

There is nothing wrong with a well designed drop-in battery from a reputable company like BattleBorn, however there are some VERY serious issues that need to be addressed. Charging sources from traditional setups are not properly designed for Lithium and in most cases do not have the ability to be set for these types of batteries.

For instance, if you intend to use this wired to your alternator, the Lithium can accept a charge as fast as your alternator can provide it, if the voltage reaches a certain point the BMS will disconnect the battery to protect it, and you can damage your alternator. This is just one of many possibilities, and the entire system needs to be looked at as a whole. Temperature limitations are also very different for Lithium compared to you traditional batteries.

The "Drop-In" solutions are very expensive compared to what you can build with individual cells. For the expense, I would not go that route unless you have a solid working knowledge of Lithium and its implications, and if you DO have that knowledge then building your own bank and configuring it is not that big of a challenge.

The Will Prowse channel that markcouz suggested is a great start to getting a high level understanding. If you want more specific advise about your situation, you need to be more specific about EXACTLY how you plan to use it, what you current system consists of etc..

A system built from individual cells, in my opinion can be FAR better than a drop in solution, but "Better" is a relative term and this is a very complex type of solution whether its drop in or built. Take the time and effort to learn more before spending a lot on either. Either solution will have major warranty risks especially if you don't adapt the system to

Best of luck!

I hadn’t heard about the alternator damage potential before. Why does a bms disengaging and therefore putting no load on the alternator potentially cause damage. Traditional lead acids when they reach voltage will stop taking charge from the alternator so once again no demand and that doesn’t seem to cause problems. I was under the impression alternators created power depending on demand, so no demand, no generation. There isn’t excess power being made.

As far as the replacement and charges go, that is definitely something to be aware of and think about, I should have mentioned it before, thanks for bringing it up Steve. As has been said there are many different batteries made with different requirements. The ones I got are built in Australia but are designed for the telecommunications sector. The whole point is to be able to drop in to an existing battery setup without needing to change anything else. That is why they are having success here as big battery banks already have charging setups worth thousands of dollars and with this particular battery the bms will happily manage the charge from a traditional charger, saving purchases from having to upgrade other hardware. But that was the designed purpose of these batteries. Not all are. You need to see the specifications for each battery manufacturer

[Bunji]

Wills ok, This guys better than good marinehowto.com. Cheers

[Basil]

Thanks everyone, excellent advice , to answer a few concerns will be using a Victron inverter charger unit, my starter battery is lead acid An hence will take any charge if lithium shut down.
Once again thanks for taking the time to reply

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Basil

Is this his way of trying to generating business by ensuring he gets the job of installation or does he have a valid point about these compact lithium batteries which I can fit my self .

Depends mostly on the specifics of the two installations and to a lesser extent your goals for the boat's power system


Some of the compact drop-in replacements are very good

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Basil

Hi
I am about to replace my old lead acid batteries with lithium batteries which have a configuration An look like a standard 12 volt battery, these are a compact unit which is a “plug An play” installation,

the other type which I looked at was the 4 seperate 3.2 volt lithium cells (making up 12v )which then have to be fitted together with a BMS system and other wiring an electronic devices.
A local agent has tried to say that the compact batteries are no way as good as the individual seperate cells, (which he installs)

Is this his way of trying to generating business by ensuring he gets the job of installation or does he have a valid point about these compact lithium batteries which I can fit my self . By the way the compact complete units are sealed An include a built in BMS unit, an just need to be hooked up like a standard battery.
Regards

Main issue with drop in is that charging regime is not adjusted and too aggresive and killing battery or even get fire.

if you want to do it simple and 100% safe, use only solar, set solar controller to match charging regime of that battery and you re done. Means you introduce switch to turn off alternator, which should be off most of time if your solar is any good. All expenses and problems come from managing multiple chargers solar/alt/generator, wind etc.

[Winston Batteries]

If go with drop ins make sure you are getting good reputation wellknown brand, because in this way you know other people tested it ok for you already, usually should be ok, but comes with cost.

Don't think about those drop-ins that you never heard about, you don’t know what kind of batteries inside and what kind of balancer they put inside either. The price might look attractive but too risky...

I think one thing good about DIY your house bank is that you can use all the information you learned to find good quality batteries, reliable BMS with minimum charge. But will need time to do the research first.

[ThereAndBack]

It really isn't hard. It is just the up front price hurts (even though it is less expensive in the long run).

Buy battleborn batteries - set up as a house bank.
Connect low C rate charging sources (solar/wind/etc) to house bank (preferably on lithium charge curves)
Connect charger to house bank with lithium charge curve
Connect alternator to start battery
Add a DC-DC charger between start and house banks on a lithium charge profile

Done.