Lithium for the love of God

[exitstrategy]

Thank you guys so, so much!

I went quiet as I am bit offshore with very little data access.

Absorbing this as well as the other threads.

Again, THANK YOU!

-Erik

[mitiempo]

A few items that I don't think have been mentioned.

LiFePo4 maintains its voltage - 12.8 - all the way down to 20% SOC. Conventional batteries voltage dips lower and lower as SOC goes down, resulting in loss of performance of many loads.

The biggest advantage I think is the lack of having to charge fully, especially for a cruiser that is rarely at a dock. This is the reason lead acid batteries have a shortened life as it causes the plates to sulphate.

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by john61ct

My understanding is 20% is no problem, even lower as long as you keep voltage from getting near that bottom shoulder..

And the low resistance, very high Amps charge acceptance rate allows for vety short engine runtimes.

Not to mention the very long lifespan does not require getting up to Full. Ever.

Anyone thinks this is just hype is sticking their head in sand, likely uncomfortable with progress in general.

Yup, that's called "The Normalcy Bias".
Sailors as a group are a very traditional bunch. Cheap, too.

[John Holbrook]

What does a DIY sailor need to do to turn four 3.xV cells into a intergrated solution battery pack solution like those sold by Mastervolt and Victron? I'm thinking it's an initial charge to 4V for each cell and then connecting them in series with a BMS like the GWL BMS123 but maybe miles out. Thanks.

Originally Posted by john61ct

Ballpark $130 per 100AH, that's per 3.xV cell, so $520 for 12V.

Buying an "integrated solution" setup with proprietary BMS included will be at least double raw cell pricing, likely 3-4x.

[OceanPlanet]

Originally Posted by John Holbrook

What does a DIY sailor need to do to turn four 3.xV cells into a intergrated solution battery pack solution like those sold by Mastervolt and Victron? I'm thinking it's an initial charge to 4V for each cell and then connecting them in series with a BMS like the GWL BMS123 but maybe miles out. Thanks.

A DIY sailor is not capable of turning four 3.xV cells into an "integrated solution battery pack" like Mastervolt, Victron, or ours (OPE-Li3 by Lithionics). Yes, there are some very good engineers on this forum that have built good systems, and some DIY have also made working packs, however they are NOT at the same level as the engineered brand systems.

[jbinbi]

Ok, sorry, I am missing something here. I see the advantadges of the LI technically. But then I go to the Oceanplanet site about, and see that 200 AH battery is about 4k.

I go to defender.com and 2 225AH Lead Acid would cost me 650. So I can replace them say 6 times for the cost of the Lithiums. I get that I can recharge the Lithiums unlimited times, and it get's charged in 25% of the time. But unless I am sailing 24/7 what is the payoff on going to Lithium.

[OceanPlanet]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

Ok, sorry, I am missing something here. I see the advantadges of the LI technically. But then I go to the Oceanplanet site about, and see that 200 AH battery is about 4k.

I go to defender.com and 2 225AH Lead Acid would cost me 650. So I can replace them say 6 times for the cost of the Lithiums. I get that I can recharge the Lithiums unlimited times, and it get's charged in 25% of the time. But unless I am sailing 24/7 what is the payoff on going to Lithium.

I have always said, that you can cover your loads with solar (don't need to charge with fuel), and weight isn't a big issue, then stick with Pb! Li won't be worth the cost or effort unless you're racing.

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by jbinbi

Ok, sorry, I am missing something here. I see the advantadges of the LI technically. But then I go to the Oceanplanet site about, and see that 200 AH battery is about 4k.

I go to defender.com and 2 225AH Lead Acid would cost me 650. So I can replace them say 6 times for the cost of the Lithiums. I get that I can recharge the Lithiums unlimited times, and it get's charged in 25% of the time. But unless I am sailing 24/7 what is the payoff on going to Lithium.

For a start, 200 amp hours of lithiums is about equivalent to 350 lead acid.

And there are less expensive lithiums available. I paid about $2200 (au) for 310 ah of Winston lithiums. 600 ah of cheap AGMs would have cost $1500.

[leftbrainstuff]

We're starting with a solution. Lithium What problem are you trying to solve?

Let me explain our approach.

We are currently upgrading solar (280 to 900W). Our current 6 x Trojan T105s are 10 years old and will need replacement soon. We are fitting as much solar as we can without making the boat look like a billboard. Good quality panels are now cheap.

We've gotten rid of old inefficient AC powered equipment and upgraded instrumentation. We're also updating some wiring and replacing some old but still working outlets and cables. I work remotely and we run a tech startup from the boat. We've halved our daily consumption by eliminating most AC to DC and DC to DC conversions.

Our daily energy budget is well understood which allows us to size solar, controllers, wind and batteries. We also want to heat hot water using our inverter supplemented by our generator when needed. We are not camping.

Finally we calculate the lowest embodied cost. Lithium batteries do not offer any functionality that flooded lead acid, AGMs or Carbon Foam batteries provide. Lithium also comes last in terms of cost benefit.

The best cost / performance tradeoff is carbon foam. FLAs also are very cost effective.

Some of the tradeoffs are:

Lithium - fire hazard, expensive, require complicated monitoring and their life is not infinite. Next gen glass embedded Lion might be a game changer if the price point drops to commodity levels.
Carbon Foam - one supplier with initial quality issues which seem to be mostly resolved.
Trojans - cheap, robust, proven and easy to monitor. They are not trendy which means they don't attract early adopter silly prices. Can also revert to old school regulators if caught without spares in remote locales.
AGM - really aren't good for deep cycle applications. Plus there are so many junk agm products you don't know what you're buying at the low end of the market. You can't recover them if you cook them like fla.

Finally I like to check specific gravity and check electrolyte levels.

[john61ct]

Yes an engineered lithium "system solution" complete with BMS and other bespoke infrastructure cost many times more than DIY just buy the cells and cobble together the rest.

The latter I estimate at 3-5 times quality lead gear.

Whether either approach is "worth it" is up to each of us to decide.

Firefly Oasis will give an alternative PSOC solution at "only" $500/100AH, a good compromise for many.

[Woodland Hills]

Originally Posted by OceanPlanet

A DIY sailor is not capable of turning four 3.xV cells into an "integrated solution battery pack" like Mastervolt, Victron, or ours (OPE-Li3 by Lithionics). Yes, there are some very good engineers on this forum that have built good systems, and some DIY have also made working packs, however they are NOT at the same level as the engineered brand systems.

DIY persons are certainly able to build battery packs, ebikers have been doing it for years. You will need cells, pure nickel strips, battery blocks, a BMS (battery management system) and an eBay pack welder. Also a few sheets of giant shrink wrap for an enclosure. Just use the google for the hours of video instruction.

[Woodland Hills]

Originally Posted by senormechanico

Don't forget, no acid to eat holes in terminal wiring and your pants, no hydrogen gas to worry about, much better Peukert factor, greater percentage of usable charge.

What about the well documented fire when charging issue? Not a problem? I've lots of battery packs for my ebikes, but I lay them in the BBQ outside to charge them. BTW these are OEM batteries, not homemade.....

[OceanPlanet]

Originally Posted by Woodland Hills

DIY persons are certainly able to build battery packs, ebikers have been doing it for years. You will need cells, pure nickel strips, battery blocks, a BMS (battery management system) and an eBay pack welder. Also a few sheets of giant shrink wrap for an enclosure. Just use the google for the hours of video instruction.

That's hilarious. Would you want one of those on your boat?

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Yes an engineered lithium "system solution" complete with BMS and other bespoke infrastructure cost many times more than DIY just buy the cells and cobble together the rest.

The latter I estimate at 3-5 times quality lead gear.

Your estimate is out by miles.

My lithiums cost 1.5 times the price of CHEAP AGMs.

(If you try) You can actually pay more for "quality" lead acid than for lithiums!

This is what I find so much on this forum: people will just rehash what they've read on the internet, and will actually argue with people who have real life experience.

[Woodland Hills]

Originally Posted by OceanPlanet

That's hilarious. Would you want one of those on your boat?

No, but the blanket statement made previously was incorrect in my experience. I wouldn't want there to be any lithium cells on any boat or airplane I was traveling on. I would expect cheap hoverboards to catch fire randomly, but when Boeings solution to the well known lithium battery fires on the 787 is to armor the compartment, well, you decide......